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411 Fact or Fiction Wrestling: Did You Have an Issue With Carmella’s MITB Win?

June 25, 2017 | Posted by Larry Csonka
Carmella Image Credit: WWE

Welcome back to the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction, Wrestling Edition! Stuff happened, people loved/hated it and let everyone else know. I pick through the interesting/not so interesting tidbits and then make 411 staff members discuss them for your pleasure. Battling this week are 411’s Dino Zee and Ken Hill!

  • Questions were sent out Monday.
  • Participants were told to expect wrestling-related content, as well as possible statements on quantum physics, homemade pharmaceuticals, the Turtle Total Trip Theorem, pizza and hydroponics.

    1. You have no issue with how Carmella won MITB.

    Dino Zee: FACT – None. I love Carmella, have been a fan of hers for a while, and she’s been my #1 Woman since she debuted on Smackdown and told us to get our popcorn ready. What can I say? I love the girl, and I’m happy that she got the win. Of course, all of this can be rendered moot next week, but for now, I’m good. People cheat in wrestling matches – yes, even women’s matches – and I’m not going to set up some cardboard with false anger about it. That’s not to say that those who weren’t happy are providing false anger – just that if I did it, it would be. I’m fine with heels cheating. I’m fine with men helping women win. I’m fine with men helping men win. I’m fine with women helping men win. I’m fine with women helping women win. This idea that, going forward, every single women’s match must end perfectly clean has gotten slightly out of hand. Viva Carmella.

    Ken Hill: FICTION – In terms of who won it, I certainly take no issue with Carmella winning it. She, like Strowman, was a low pick during the draft (last one for Smackdown, in fact), yet has pinned the SD Women’s Champ twice in recent weeks. She’s made a lot of noise about being underestimated and overlooked as a prime talent on the show, which was the attitude of the first to-be Mr. MITB Edge before he broke on through, if you recall, and delivered a pretty solid promo on why there should be no dispute about how she won it given the various “controversies” in past MITB ladder matches. Much like Edge with a steel chair in 2005, Finlay having Swoggle climb in 2007, or even Maryse attempting to bring the case down for DiBiase in 2010, Carmella merely took advantage of the No-DQ setting of MITB by having Ellsworth get involved. If anything, I think the mistake was not having her cash in that very night so as to take the decision of her keeping the case or not out of the hands of Daniel and Shane, which would have solidified the controversial, opportunistic side of her character. That being said, it’s specifically HOW she won it that I do take issue with. If Ellsworth had been more indirectly involved, say like boosting Carmella up towards the case on his shoulders ala Tomko and Christian in 2005, then I wouldn’t be so up in arms about it. However, he just ambled up, took the case down and literally handed it to her. When you’re a company who touts themselves as “heading the women’s revolution in sports entertainment”, as empty as that may sound, the last thing you’d want to do is set a precedent where a MAN has to win a first-time historic women’s match for a female competitor. From a social media and booking outlook, WWE knows they shot themselves in the foot with this, thus why we have the rematch for next week (where I believe Carmella will win again, this time under somewhat less dubious circumstances).

    2. WWE made the right call by having Mike & Maria Kanellis skip NXT.

    Dino Zee: FACT – Yeah, I think this was the right call, but more for Maria and Mike. Maria is a well-known and beloved (at least over here) figure from recent WWE history, and having her return to NXT might have been a waste. Bringing them right up to the main roster, I feel, was a good move, allowing the former Mike Bennett the chance to hit the ground running, while Maria navigates the course for them due to her experience. Besides, Bennett already spent the last year wrestling in front of a smaller crowd in Florida, which has to count as transferable credits regarding “going to NXT”. Yes, I’m down with this call as well.

    Ken Hill: FICTION – I understand the notion of wanting to capitalize on Maria’s familiarity with the WWE audience and her star power and Bennett’s veteran in-ring experience, but once upon a time we were all sold on Sin Cara (Mistico) being a big-time deal enough that he didn’t need NXT (he felt the same way, by the by) and stunk up things exactly because he didn’t have the time in NXT to smooth out his in-ring work and acclimate himself to the WWE style or even work on his English, thus falling rather flat and clunky to the audience. Even if it only ended up being a couple months, starting in NXT would do wonders for Mrs. and Mr. Kanellis by re-acclimating WWE viewers with Maria on a smaller scale while also introducing Mike to a new, more-receptive wrestling audience and give him a chance to hammer out a solid, WWE-style in-ring ethic before making the move to the blue brand.

    3. The build to Brock Lesnar vs. Samoa Joe has been excellent.

    Dino Zee: FACT – I’ve enjoyed it, yes. The chokeout of Heyman, the brawl between the two last week, Joe beating Reigns thanks to Roman needing to watch a video like an idiot… it’s been a good, full-on build to a meeting between two wrestlers, and I’ve appreciated it. Sure, we always do the MMA-style interviews when it’s a Brock Lesnar match, so those aren’t as cool as they were to me in the past, but they’re still always a nice, different touch to the way they produce the show, which is always appreciated. The biggest part of the build that I’ve enjoyed, quite frankly, has been the treatment of Joe himself. He’s nearly being positioned as Lesnar’s equal, which we really haven’t seen a lot of in recent years. Considering this is a guy that isn’t home-grown, that will always be a huge surprise to many fans. I figured, after the Rollins program, that Joe would probably settle into a high mid-card role, but seeing him get the match with Brock, even if he’s in all certainty a dead man walking, is a nice step. Joe being treated like a wrecking ball heading into a match with Brock Lesnar? Excellent! *air guitar*

    Ken Hill: FACT – I would most certainly say so, for many different reasons, the first of which being that Joe wasted no time in affirming just how far he’d go just to send a message to Brock by trapping Heyman in the Coquina Clutch one week, dropping a fiery post-show promo about how there’s nothing Lesnar can do to prepare for someone like Joe then having no hesitation in firing the first shot by head butting Brock the week after, much like how Joe’s feud with Angle kicked off in 2006. In those scant couple weeks, Joe did far more to establish himself as a serious threat to Lesnar than Reigns did in 2015. It also helps that Heyman and Joe have both been solid on the mic, Heyman not at all underselling the risk Samoa Joe poses, but rather chiding Joe for having the gall to underestimate Lesnar, and Joe for posing a tranquil, but very poignant message that he truly is the “worst-case scenario” for Lesnar and his first title defense.. The big question going into the match will be whether we get a motivated Lesnar to combat Joe in what would be one of the better physical spectacles in recent memory, or merely the “Suplex City guided tour” version we’ve seen in the last couple years versus Ambrose, Orton and others.

    SWITCH!

    4. While Raw’s angle, featuring Big Cass turning heel on Enzo was really good, it leaves the Raw tag team division in shambles.

    Ken Hill: FICTION – That would imply Raw’s tag division was solid beforehand; Golden Truth was going nowhere, even if they were a more comedic, low-card team, and the same can be said with Enzo and Cass, who were basically stuck in a perpetual “Groundhog Day” feud with The Club. Splitting the two teams up was for the best, as we’ve seen with the exchange of good backstage promos from Dust and Truth, and the shockingly solid promo from Cass, as you pointed out. Admittedly, there is something of an imbalance in terms of heel teams (Cesaro & Sheamus, The Revival, The Club) to face teams (Hardy Boyz, Slater & Rhyno) and given Matt’s words about he and Jeff having singles run again at some point in the future, that would leave the inaugural SD tag champs as the sole face team if and when the Hardys split. This problem, though, has a simple fix: Bring one of the face teams from the blue brand over, like American Alpha, who, aside from Gable’s recent appearance, have done little to nothing of note since losing the tag straps to the Usos. They would certainly bring a more energetic, crisp feel to the Raw tag ranks, and it would be interesting to see how they would interact with the Raw GM, as its been said many times that Angle would make an effective on-air manager/mentor for Jordan and Gable.

    Dino Zee: FICTION – Oh no! A WWE tag team division is in shambles! Sure, it is, but it doesn’t matter. It never does. They’ll get refocused on teams again in the near future, and then forget about them again. Cesaro and Sheamus will rule until a super team is formed (or the Hardy’s finally break). Besides, are we pretending that Enzo and Cass were the glue holding the division together? I’m a fan of the two of them, but I never felt like that about the team. I do feel bad that the division lost a very popular act, but I don’t think losing this team is the reason the division is in shambles, which is why I go fiction here.

    5. You are 100% behind Shelton Benjamin returning to WWE.

    Ken Hill: FACT – Why not? Shelton was fun to watch during his stints on RAW versus Triple H, HBK, Jericho, Orton and the like, and made his name in the first couple MITB matches, and even had solid runs as IC Champ, US Champ and as part of Team Angle. Even if he wasn’t the greatest talker, you could always expect a solidly-done match at the very least, and marquee matches like his Gold Rush Tourney match with Michaels in 2005 that people to this day still talk about, even if that talk is more about the finish…

    I think he could be a solid hand on either brand, though I lean more towards him being on the blue brand, mostly because there’s more potential with the array of talent on hand, like Benjamin versus Owens, versus Zayn…hell, if they could find a way to bring in Charlie Haas a couple times we could have a full-blown feud with the WGTT versus American Alpha.

    Dino Zee: FACT – Yeah, why not? I always liked watching him wrestle, he can go against a nice variety of opposition, and he’s still pretty well-known. I don’t expect him to win a hundred world titles or anything, but I’m still 100% behind Shelton Benjamin returning to WWE, yes. Simple answer for a simple question.

    6. After a short feud with Big Cass, WWE should move Enzo to 205 Live.

    Ken Hill: FACT – Again, why not? Unless they plan on transitioning Enzo to another role like manager or announcer, 205 Live’s really the only place where Enzo could remain a viable competitor without being completely overmatched, although given his current in-ring acumen, calling him viable’s something of a stretch. If WWE is really intent on keeping him performing in the ring, then 205 Live is definitely the endgame for him following the blow-off from his feud with Cass. Otherwise, I see him in more of a backstage role, like an announcer or interviewer, something that will keep him in the limelight so WWE can take advantage of his popularity.

    Dino Zee: FICTION – Yeah, I don’t get this one at all, and I’ve seen this both on the interwebs, and heard it amongst my friends. I hate the idea. Enzo’s biggest criticism is that he isn’t a good wrestler. So, we think putting him in the division where the focus is the in-ring action is a good idea? Just because he’s small? We already have a guy or two in that division that loses all the time while not working a traditional “crusierweight” style, and so I see no need to add Enzo to the mix. Just make this dude a permanent mouthpiece for any guy on the roster that needs one.