wrestling / Columns

411 Fact or Fiction Wrestling: Lucha Underground Edition

October 4, 2015 | Posted by Larry Csonka

Welcome back to the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction, Wrestling Edition! Stuff happened, people loved/hated it and let everyone else know. I pick through the interesting/not so interesting tidbits and then make 411 staff members discuss them for your pleasure. Battling this week are 411’s Wyatt Beougher and Mike Hammerlock!

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  • This is an all Lucha Underground edition.

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    1. Rey Mysterio will NOT be a major participant in season two of Lucha Underground.

    Wyatt Beougher: FICTION – I desperately want this to be a FACT, but from everything that is being reported, it looks like Rey is going to be featured heavily in season two of Lucha Underground. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating here – the only way that should be even a remotely feasible option is if he is brought in to be the Vampiro to Fenix’s Pentagon Jr. Simply put, Rey’s knees are gone and have been for at least a decade. He’s working at approximately one-quarter the speed now as when he had his breakout match in the United States TWENTY YEARS AGO, and with the new generation of high-energy high-flyers like Fenix and Prince Puma already in Lucha Underground, seeing Rey ssssssllllllooooooowwwwwwllllllyyyy run the ropes for the 6-1-9 (Fun Fact: 619 is actually how many seconds it takes Rey to hit the move, from start to finish!) is going to be brutal to watch. I give him all the credit in the world for being one of the most exciting wrestlers of all time, but at one point, Ken Shamrock was one of the most exciting fighters of all time too, and just like Shamrock doesn’t belong in the UFC based on the ever-evolving skills of their current roster, the same can be said for Rey and Lucha Underground.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION – All indications are LU and Mysterio are in serious talks. While I’m all for Mysterio cutting himself the best possible deal, ultimately he needs to say yes. He’s a professional wrestler and LU is a golden opportunity he’d be foolish pass up. Rey made a career out of being a mighty mite in WCW and WWE. He bounced around the ring like a pinball. People loved it. However, neither promotion ever capitalized on what it truly meant to be the Mysterious King. Rey’s supernaturality stopped at him being able to punch above his weight. Lucha Underground can present Rey as if we’ve only seen the tip of his iceberg. We don’t know Rey Mysterio or the forces that drive him, never have. This is his chance to build a legend on top his career. He’d be a fool not to do it. Mysterio will be there for season two and I can’t wait to plunge down that rabbit hole.

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    2. While he will still be a valuable part of the roster, the Prince Puma character will take on a lesser role in season two.

    Wyatt Beougher: FACT – I think initially, Puma is going to remain the top face as he attempts to regain his title from Mil Muertes, but as the season progresses, he will move into a secondary role, where he can still main event occasionally, but the main storyline of the promotion is no longer going to revolve around him. Personally, I’m not against that at all, especially if it means we get more trios or atomicos matches involving Puma, or if he gets to continue his feud with King Cuerno (and the severely underutilized Cuerno gets his win back in a star-making performance). The ways things are going right now, Mil Muertes is going to be the main focus of storylines in season two, at least in the early goings, and while Puma should certainly have the right to rematch the man who took his Lucha Underground title from him, I think the most logical opponent for Muertes is the man who holds a win over him in the Grave Consequences match that still tops my list of best matches from 2015 – Fenix. Of course, there is always the possibility that Fenix gets tied up with Pentagon Jr (as least according to my suggestion in my first response), which would then allow Puma to remain the top face; however, I think it is far more likely that Fenix has moved into the main protagonist role by the midpoint of season two, and if he wins the title from Mil Muertes, he could spend the rest of the season feuding with Pentagon Jr.

    Mike Hammerlock: FACT – I’m only picking fact in that he probably won’t be the LU champion for the bulk of the season. That automatically makes everything else a lesser role. Yet he’s going to be all over the show. It’s entirely possible the big payoff at Ultima Lucha will be Puma taking back his belt after having had to complete something like the Twelve Trials of Prince Puma during the season. By no means is he going to be a minor character. This isn’t the WWE, where talent gets discarded. Puma will be active and fantastic during season two. LU built Puma up to star level and it will keep him there. Big question for me is whether he breaks out an 810 to win a major match.

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    3. You’re glad that Hernandez is no longer with the promotion.

    Wyatt Beougher: FACT – Personally, I’m not a fan of Hernandez, but I can appreciate that he has his fans and there are people who value no-selling and pimp walking even when it comes at the detriment of a match, but that’s exactly why I had such a problem with Hernandez in season one. Sure, he was mostly used as enhancement talent, losing marquee matchups against both Prince Puma and Drago and mostly winning against lesser competition (although he did beat Alberto El Patron thanks to Johnny Mundo’s heel turn), but I saw no reason then and I see no reason now why it couldn’t have been someone like King Cuerno in those spots. Yes, I will admit that I am biased towards Cuerno, who is currently one of my favorite wrestlers; however, to me, Hernandez always felt like a square peg trying to fit into Lucha Underground’s round hole. Guys like Johnny Mundo and Big Ryck who came up in WWE developmental and had no real lucha libre experience prior to Lucha Underground were able to tailor their styles (or at least improve their storytelling) to better fit within the constraints of LU, yet Hernandez was just…Hernandez – same moves, same mannerisms, same lack of psychology (minus the Ultima Lucha match with Drago – I give him immense credit for that) – and as a result, he stuck out like a sore thumb. Plus, it’s 2015 – there’s no reason for him to be making shady backdoor deals with another promotion (in this case TNA), which ends up hurting both of those promotions, so I’m all in favor of Lucha Underground dropping him for violating his contract.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION – I’m sure after the nonsense Hernandez pulled with the LU-TNA affair, Lucha Underground organizers are glad he’s no longer with the promotion, but I’ve always thought Super Mex can be an asset when handled correctly. He’s Latino with WWE size. The business needs bruisers, just like it needs technicians and aerialists and comedians and giants. Since I don’t have to deal with Hernandez one-on-one, I’ve got no personal feelings against the guy. He’s an established player in the business, one of the better-known Latino talents here in the U.S. and an archetype LU certainly could use. While I’m not the least bit upset that he’s gone, I’m generally for the LU creative team having a wide variety of toys at their disposal.

    4. Lucha Underground is likely the only promotion that could make this actually work in modern pro wrestling.

    Wyatt Beougher: FACT – It really depends on what we’re talking about here – if the statement refers specifically to the apron trampoline/catapult devices that allow competitors to launch themselves into the ring, then it is an absolute FACT; if we’re also talking about the overuse of arm drags and the slide whistle with the gimmick, then FICTION, because no promotion is going to make that work in this day and age. I’m going to operate under the assumption that we’re only talking about the launch pads, and after watching that video, I already want Lucha Underground to implement these into their tag team/trios/atomicos matches, just to see what guys like Drago, Aerostar, Angelico, King Cuerno, and especially Fenix are able to do with them. Can you imagine Drago doing a complete revolution in the air, directly into a dragonrana? Or Fenix launching himself into the air, but instead delivering a variation of that spectacular rope walk elbow drop to the outside that he pulled out in season one? Lucha Underground is home to some of the most creative high-flyers in the world today (and, apparently, Rey Mysterio), so giving them even more ways to amaze the fans certainly seems like something that would be in their wheelhouse.

    Mike Hammerlock: FCITION – DDT over in Japan could do it as well, though they’d somehow incorporate tea bagging with it. So, ick. Chikara also could do it, though they often don’t have the required ceiling clearance for this sort of thing. Guaranteed we’d get flying ants, Icarus sprouting wings, and Hallowicked and Frightmare throwing pumpkin grenades Green Goblin-style. On a separate note, one of these days Chikara has got to do a bouncy castle of doom match. However, Lucha Underground could do it and they’d be awesome at it. The promotion employs a virtual human air force, with Angelico the ranking wing commander. Pneumatic springboards firing these guys into the air doesn’t seem much of a reach. Certainly sounds like an invention from the twisted mind of Dario Cueto, employing industrial steam power in an effort to kill off his tecnicos. Of course it would backfire and the tecnicos would love it. I definitely expect them to mess with our notions of how you can stage a wrestling match this season (not that they’ll be doing this exact thing).

    SWITCH!

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    5. Fenix cashing in his Gift of the Gods title and defeating Mil Muertes for the title, leading to a program between Fenix and Pentagon Jr. will be the top storyline of season two.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION – First off, one of the best things about LU is they go so far off the reservation, no one can predict what they’ll do. One of these years Fenix and Pentagon Jr., who are real-life brothers, are going to have a mega-feud. No idea how they’ll get there. This isn’t the WWE where we know how things are going to end before they even start. Second, I’m guessing there will be no top storyline in LU. It tells multiple stories at the same time, weaves them together and spins them in unexpected directions. I mean, what was the top storyline in LU last year? Was it Mil Muertes’ rise to the title or Prince Puma’s season-long star turn or Johnny Mundo’s consistent excellence or Pentagon Jr. finding his master in Vampiro or Fenix’s defeat of then loss to Muertes followed by his winning of the Gift of the Gods or the rise of the dysfunctional trio or Alberto El Patron fighting for truth, justice and the Mexican way or Dario Cueto’s sleazy brilliance? It’s like picking your favorite head on a hydra. Third, I suspect they want the Gift of the Gods to stand on its own and not become a consolation prize strap.

    Wyatt Beougher: FACT – I already talked about this somewhat in my response to the Prince Puma statement, but from every indication we were given in season one, it certainly seems like that will be the case. And it would make perfect sense as well, as Fenix and Pentagon Jr debuted in Lucha Underground against one another (and Drago), and the Avatar of Life using his Gift of the Gods title to earn a rubber match against the Avatar of Death would certainly seem to be the end game of the storyline that they’ve been telling for most of the first season. If this were WWE, of course, we wouldn’t get the logical conclusion of the story (Fenix and Mil Muertes would just wrestle each other every week, trading wins and losses and causing the other to lose via distraction rollup), but I have faith in Lucha Underground to deliver here. So if Fenix wins their third encounter and takes the LU title from Mil Muertes, who does that leave for him to face? The always-angry skeleton ninja with his Sith Lord/Pope master. Without going too far beneath these guys masks, I’ll just say that Fenix and Pentagon Jr know each other extremely well, and a feud between them would almost certainly be outstanding.

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    6. Lucha Underground DOES NOT need Alberto El Patron for season two.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION – I loved Alberto in the first season of LU and thought they used him well – to enhance the show, not to steal it. Amazing how much more invigorated he looked. More than that, he became a bit of a symbol for an audience that’s grown tired of the WWE treating Hispanics as stock characters (in the WWE’s defense, it treats almost everyone like a stock character). El Patron brings big match skills and international recognizability. I’m sure LU could thrive without him, but it’s nice to have him in the mix. The organization that probably needs El Patron in season two is AAA. LU publicizes that there’s a big federation operating south of the U.S. border. Long-term AAA wants to make inroads with American wrestling fans. Alberto is the man to lead that charge. Gotta show your show pony.

    Wyatt Beougher: FACT – Look, I’m a huge Alberto El Patron fan, and I think he was utilized perfectly by Lucha Underground in season one; that said, as long as he is the AAA Mega Champion, it handicaps what Lucha Underground is able to do with him. It essentially precludes him from chasing the LU championship, because neither LU nor parent company AAA is going to want their main champion to look inferior to the other promotion’s champion. If you looked only at El Patron’s participation in Lucha Underground during season one, you might wonder why this would be a problem, and, in a vacuum, it likely wouldn’t be, as he could continue to have upper midcard feuds with talents who aren’t currently involved in the title hunt. But with his biggest rival in AAA, El Texano Jr, now a face in Lucha Underground, and LU introducing a second singles championship in the Gift of the Gods, not only are El Patron’s feud partners limited, but having a third singles title in a promotion with thirty or so active wrestlers just seems like overkill. That said, El Patron appearing on Lucha Underground in season two would be mutually beneficial to both parties, as it continues to allow Patron to show American fans just how poorly he was utilized in WWE while giving Lucha Underground another strong English speaker in their attempts to convert American wrestling fans into fans of lucha libre. Selfishly, I hope that they get the details worked out and AEP continues to appear in Lucha Underground (preferably after dropping the AAA Mega Championship), but I honestly don’t believe Lucha Underground needs him, which is why I went FICTION on this one.

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    7. Judging by his performance at the Ultima Lucha finale, and the fact that Vampiro will now be a regular character on TV, Lucha Underground should lock in Michael Schiavello as a permanent commentator for the show.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION…? – I actually can’t answer this one since, like the majority of LU viewers, I watch the Spanish language feed with Hugo Savinovich. I read positive reviews of Schiavello’s work at Ultima Lucha, but the version I watched was Hugo flying solo. BRUTAL! BRUTAL! BRUTAL! Schiavello is a seasoned fight caller, so he’d make sense, but I’m curious who’s joining Hugo if Schiavello joins Matt Striker on the English broadcast. Also, could this mean Hugo calls it live since he won’t have a color commentator pulling double duty? Yes, what I’m saying is maybe LU is about to gain a Spanish announcer table! If so, I hope they have the comic sensibility to treat that table with extreme respect.

    Wyatt Beougher: FICTION – As an MMA fan, I was familiar with Michael Schiavello long before he commentated on Ultima Lucha, and while I think he did a fine job and made the two-hour season finale feel like the big-time event it was intended to be, to me, Schiavello works best in small doses and there were points during Ultima Lucha where I found myself missing Vampiro’s insights. For as much as I might lament his dudebro delivery, the guy knows his lucha libre, and for that reason, I think Lucha Underground would be further ahead to stick another veteran with knowledge of the traditions and history of lucha libre at the desk with Striker. I think Chavito would be an excellent choice, or even Rey-Rey since it would keep the latter out of the ring. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how viable either of those suggestions are, especially if LU wants to keep one or both of them as active in-ring competitors (plus there’s the matter of Rey’s price tag, which is too high for him as a wrestler and would be far too high to only have him on commentary). I guess they could always call Chavo Classic or have Konnan take over once he and Puma inevitably split.

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    8. The biggest fear for season two of Lucha Underground will be that it will not live up to the quality of the first season.

    Mike Hammerlock: FICTION – I have zero concern about that. If anything, the spectacular creative success of the first season should be evidence that LU 2.0 could be even better. In season one they had to do a lot of world building. They had to turn a warehouse into a temple and populate it with far flung characters. They had to work in cinematic touches, fantastical elements and, of course, the mind-bending twist when Bael got slaughtered by Matanza. That one blood-splattered moment opened up Lucha Underground to do anything. Show runner Eric van Wagenen has even said they purposefully held back during the first season in order to walk the audience into this crazy alternate universe. More likely, season two will require us to buckle in and return our seats to their upright positions. They’re just getting started. I have no fear when it comes to LU. The people in charge ooze competence. This isn’t your standard seat-of-your-pants wrestling promotion where everything’s managed with a short-term view. LU is run by television people who came into this with a multi-year plan. They aren’t just putting on wrestling matches, they’re looking to redefine the art form. Do not check your expectations. Let them run wild. Lucha Underground is fueled by ambition. No way they won’t up the ante in season two.

    Wyatt Beougher: FCITION – By the time we’re hitting the home stretch for the second Ultima Lucha, I suppose that could be a very real fear, but at this point, everyone involved in the operation of Lucha Underground has done enough to earn my trust that I’m not even worried about that in the least. In fact, until I read this statement, the only emotions I’d felt were relief and joy at the news that the second season was officially a go. Sure, there’s the possibility that a smaller budget might lead to cuts that end up being unfavorable to the promotion, but if the producers think the average LU fan won’t even notice them, who am I to argue?