wrestling / Columns

411 Fact or Fiction Wrestling: Was Joe Pinning Reigns on Raw The Right Call?

February 12, 2017 | Posted by Larry Csonka
Samoa Joe

Welcome back to the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction, Wrestling Edition! Stuff happened, people loved/hated it and let everyone else know. I pick through the interesting/not so interesting tidbits and then make 411 staff members discuss them for your pleasure. Battling this week are 411’s Greg DeMarco and Justin Watry!

  • Questions were sent out Monday.
  • Participants were told to expect wrestling-related content, as well as possible statements on quantum physics, homemade pharmaceuticals, the Turtle Total Trip Theorem, pizza and hydroponics.

    1. If Seth Rollins won’t be cleared for WrestleMania, who should WWE replace him with?

    Justin Watry: Finn Balor – Yes, I am still holding out hope that he is ready to go before WrestleMania 33. Foolishly, I thought he would be back for the Royal Rumble event. Well, count me in for one more month of waiting. I’ve seen it suggested that WWE should quickly turn Samoa Joe to feud with Triple H. Eh, I disagree. The dude JUST showed up. It would be a bad omen that he is already changing directions. He needs to stick to his current for a good while before anything drastic happens. Establish him as the human wrecking ball first out to destroy the locker room. Over time, fans will cheer and/or want ‘new.’ No, Finn Balor has the history with NXT, is a face, and he would be a fine replacement for somebody to defeat HHH at Mania. All feels like a moot point though; Seth Rollins appears to have dodged a bullet and will battle Triple H! That was apparent the day his injury news broke, and major surgery was NOT announced. Usually, doctors know pretty quickly if it is bad. Rest easy, Rollins vs. HHH is a go.

    Greg Demarco: Shane McMahon – Here comes the monnnneeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

    The WWE needs a storyline reason for Triple H to perform at WrestleMania 33, and short of some Fatal 4-Way for the “right to face the Game,” this makes the most sense. There’s a ton of backstory and it’ll be easy to set up. I know what you’re thinking, too: “What about Shane O’Mac vs. AJ Styles?” I get that, but it’s another easy fix. You have AJ Styles go over in the Elimination Chamber, swerving everyone (like myself) who assumes Bray Wyatt is going to win. Bray still finds his way into the match, and it’s Bray vs. Orton vs. AJ at WM33. If Rollins is able to go, you put Bray over AJ on Smackdown, and AJ loses the rematch with the stipulation that he gives up his WrestleMania rights by challenging Bray that night on television. AJ takes exception to that stipulation after the fact, and Shane vs. AJ is born. Contingency plans shouldn’t be a new thing in 2017! There are other options, too:

    * Samoa Joe – Honestly, this is too complicated to set up
    * Kurt Angle – I wish, but likely medically cleared
    * Finn Balor – Makes sense (Trips tarnished the legacy of “his” Universal Championship), but it’s not likely
    * Dean Ambrose – Stepping in for his brother

    But at the end of the day, my vote goes to none other than the prodigal son himself, Shane McMahon.

    2. WWE should run another “Half Time” heat during the Super Bowl.

    Justin Watry: FICTION – Terrible idea. Dreadful, bad, horrendous, waste of money, waste of time, poor management, etc. Every single phrase or term you could use to say that this shouldn’t happen. Halftime Heat worked ONCE because the snowball was already going downhill. That momentum was not going to stop for anything. Same reason why Vince McMahon vs. Stone Cold authority figure BS worked ONCE, and nearly twenty years later, we have to keep repeating it hoping for similar success. The Attitude broke just about every rule imaginable, due to the fact that the company could do no wrong. Go against the Halftime show of the Super Bowl? Sure. A pay-per-view about Valentine’s Day? Sure. Hot potato title changes and SWERVES for the sake of SWERVES? Sure. Any other era or time period, that’d spell doom. However, the Attitude Era existed in such a bubble that nothing made sense…and it worked. Once.

    Greg Demarco: FICTION – I’ll pass. Halftime Heat was a great gimmick in the Attitude Era—an era where the WWE was fighting for mainstream acceptance. And it worked! The company I regularly reported on by entertainment entities like TMZ, and they have a working relationship with ESPN. Doing Halftime Heat now would be gimmicky and desperate, something the company no longer needs to be. It’s almost a “TNA thing” to do. (Or is it “Anthem thing” now? I don’t know about that, but I can say that their new logo is WEIRD!) There’s another factor as well, and that’s the NBC Universal relationship with the WWE. NBC is now a major partner for the NFL, and the NFL likes to command the market place. So I don’t expect to see any serious halftime competition appearing on any of their networks. And on the WWE Network? While that’s doable, it’s still likely not cool with NBC, and I don’t see Vince McMahon jeopardizing anything there.

    3. WWE has already established the UK title as a low tier title by debuting it on the NXT brand.

    Justin Watry: FICTION – Um, it is a low tier title. That was already established from the beginning. Same with the Cruiserweight Title. That was not made known on their Raw debut. That was already known from the onset of the WWE Network tournament. Honestly, anything below the WWE Championship could be argued is a low tier title. The Universal Title is still odd to me (does it count as a World Title?). The IC Title has had its ups and downs in the recent years, but does anybody even remember that Dean Ambrose currently has it? The United States Title is on Chris Jericho…and nobody seems to care very much outside of one more accolade added to his resume. The UK Title is okay as a part of NXT until the plans are fully set for this supposed global expansion. I wrote about this in my still-to-be-posted-but-finished January 2017 reader feedback column. No issues with it at all.

    Greg Demarco: FACT – I’ve gotta be honest, this was a really, really tough call. But one point finally edged this out for me: it’s SUPPOSED to be a lower tier title. The UK Championship Tournament was a WWE Network exclusive, just like NXT itself. While it was promoted on WWE television, there was no real push for those stars to appear on TV. And by now we’ve all seen the WWE dot com poll about the Tournament, where thousands marked that they didn’t watch the tournament. You won’t see the NXT Championship defended at WrestleMania this year, and you won’t see the UK Championship defended either. To me it’s just a placeholder until the UK gets its own show, which isn’t likely to happen until after WrestleMania. So we keep the upcoming brand relevant. Plus, it also seems like a matter of convenience. The company brought Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne to the states, so you might as well use them as a special treat on NXT. Much like any other regional championships, this isn’t a major title as compared to the television brands. Appearing on NXT makes total sense to me.

    SWITCH!

    4. Corey Graves is one of NXT’s biggest success stories.

    Greg Demarco: FACT – This is an indisputable fact. Had the question said he was THE biggest success story, you could make an argument. But it says “one of,” and with me semantics always wins. Corey Graves is a great example of getting knocked down ten times and getting up eleven. When he wasn’t cleared to compete, he easily could have disappeared for a while, digging a deep hole of depression that would have led to his release. But he kept going to work each day, doing whatever he could. He worked on production. He studied commentary. He made himself useful without waiting for an offer. He went out and grabbed Vince McMahon’s proverbial brass ring. And it worked. Graves quickly become of NXT’s most recognizable figures, scoring his own WWE Network show and eventually moving to the main roster with the brand split… a move that didn’t surprise me at all. Now he’s so entrenched into the fabric of the WWE that he cannot work NXT anymore, opening the door for Nigel McGuinness (a man whose signing was a major coup for the WWE). It was a fork in the road, and Graves proved what he was made of. Not as an athlete, but as a person. The show would have gone on without him, except he didn’t let it.

    Justin Watry: FACT – Actually, I would argue he is one of WWE Network’s biggest success to stories. Same with NXT though; that works too. Being somebody who jumped on his bandwagon long ago and is still all for his WWE work, it has been a pleasure to watch. I can’t tell you how awesome it was to see him get a tribute video shown on NXT last Wednesday night. Even if the show was basically filler and used to stall time in between tapings, Corey Graves deserved that moment. On to bigger and better things. It could not happen to a better guy.

    5. You will be perfectly fine with Goldberg beating Owens at Fastlane in under two-minute.

    Greg Demarco: FICTION – I honestly don’t see “Fiction” as a strong enough answer here. HELL-FREAKING-NO! You want to talk about a success story, that story is Kevin Owens. He doesn’t have the WWE look, and was labeled as “indy for life” multiple times in his career. Hell, he probably had that label from WWE brass at times. And he beat John Cena, clean, in his main roster debut. He’s persevered, taking “Stone Cold” Steve Austin’s advice to never stop talking. Now he’s the WWE Universal Champion and still delivers in the ring. Goldberg is a novelty act, one that is going over really well. He owns Brock Lesnar, beating him in under two minutes at Survivor Series and eliminating him in quick fashion at the Royal Rumble. He’s hot right now, on top of the world. But Brock Lesnar vs. Goldberg doesn’t need the WWE Universal Championship, and the Universal Championship doesn’t need Lesnar vs. Goldberg. I’d rather see Goldberg his Owens with a Spear and a Jackhammer, only for Jericho to pull the ref out. Then let Owens be competitive with Goldberg until Brock Lesnar shows up and tries to exact revenge on Goldberg. That leads to an Owens win, and further cements the Brock Lesnar vs. Goldberg WrestleMania showdown. But I beg you, WWE, please don’t give Goldberg a world title. It’s just unnecessary.

    Justin Watry: FACT – I say FACT for two reasons. First of all, I wrote about Sheamus defeating Daniel Bryan in less than a minute a full week before WrestleMania 28 in 2012. It was logical, fit the kayfabe world Smackdown was at the time, and as explained later, that move was best for BOTH wrestlers. While everybody whined and cried about the usual “BURIALLLLLLLLLL” nonsense, I was steadfast in saying it helped Bryan more than anybody knew. Sure enough, I was right. Same goes for Fastlane. Kevin Owens has been a weasel champ from the start. Back in August all the way to February 2017. We know that. Nobody can deny it. Thus, he will get his comeuppances at some point in dramatic fashion. Whether at Fastlane, WrestleMania, or wherever – Owens (the heel) will lose and lose decisively. Seconds reason I’d love to see it is because I will be live in Milwaukee on March 5th. First PPV in Wisconsin in over five years, and I can’t wait. The crowd reaction for Bill FREAKIN’ Goldberg winning the title would be enormous. A huge moment that would be great to witness in person. I am as shocked as anybody, but Goldberg as a champion in 2017? Welcome to pro wrestling!

    6. Samoa Joe pinning Roman Reigns on Raw was the right call.

    Greg Demarco: FACT – 100% Roman Reigns is a bad ass, and has been promoted as one since his WWE debut in The Shield. He’s a three-time World Champion, has main evented WrestleMania twice, and finished in the Top 3 of every Royal Rumble he’s appeared in, including two runner up spots and one win. He truly is becoming THE GUY. But he’s not a guy afraid to put anyone over. Finn Balor made his Raw debut after the 2016 WWE Draft, pinning Roman Reigns in his second match of the night. He went on to become WWE Universal Champion at SummerSlam. Now it was Samoa Joe’s turn. He debuted as Triple H’s heavy, immediately sending him to the top of the card on the Monday brand. The next week he makes his main roster in-ring debut, against Reigns. Had Joe lost, where does that leave him? As just another victim of Roman Reigns? How effective of an associate is he for Triple H if he loses to Roman Reigns on day one? And the loss doesn’t hurt Reigns one big. Roman Reigns lost after interference from Braun Strowman, the man he is going to defeat at Fastlane before going on and likely handing The Undertaker his second WrestleMania loss. Not a bit of damage done in his loss to Samoa Joe. And Joe? He’s 100% better off because of the booking. In fact had Samoa Joe lost, I’d be here today telling you it was 100% the wrong call. In that match, Joe should win, Joe needed to win, and Joe did win.

    Justin Watry: FACT – It was the right outcome. In a perfect world, the correct call would have been to tease the match and then deliver an all out brawl with Braun Strowman and others getting involved, but once you have the bell ring, you have to have the newly debuted Samoa Joe beat Roman Reigns. You have to. Again, that seems like a major bout to save for a pay-per-view but whatever. RAW needed a big main event, and with them being in separate feuds before WrestleMania 33, it will be okay to re-visit in a couple of months. Reigns has lost to Seth Rollins, Dean Ambrose, his Survivor Series team lost, he failed at Roadblock, was pinned at Royal Rumble…and now to Joe on Raw. Boy, he sure does get beat a lot for all the complaining about his SUPER dominance. Good for Samoa Joe though. Bobby Roode on NXT, Austin Aries on 205 Live, AJ Styles on Smackdown, and Joe on Raw. Talk about making an impact.