wrestling / Columns

Ask 411 Wrestling: Can Reigns Win Over The IWC?

January 28, 2015 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina

Hello there, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling! I’m Mathew Sforcina, and I got the WWE Network last week just to see the Royal Rumble!

So yeah. Guess how I’m feeling right now?

But hey, the Title Match was all kinds of awesome, right?

Anyway, got a question for me? Send it to [email protected] and I’ll read it.

BANNER!

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! The Rumble month is finished, and I’m kinda happy Reigns won, was easier to get a Drabble out of him.

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I don’t really have anything to reply to, there was a lot of theoretical discussion that we now have data to chew over, but I will point out something I wrote last week. And I quote:

If Bryan comes out at #14, lasts 30 minutes, taking out Goldust and an Uso, and is eliminated by Kane to leave a final four of Kane, Big Show, Rusev and Roman Reigns, that will lead to many a profane chant, I’d wager.

My pessimistic, worst case scenario was both too optimistic AND on the money. I’m not sure how to feel about that.

The Trivia Crown

What Am I? I’m a thing. The opportunity I should have gotten the guy who won me, he didn’t get for a while (and even then he had to win something else to get that), due to a later revoking. Despite eight former/future world champions fighting for me, only one future world champ was in the final match of the tournament to win me. The guy who won me was replacing someone else who was injured before the tournament. Three tag teams broke apart to fight for me (four if you include the best buddies who weren’t really a tag team but did team often). A boot ended two of the matches in the tourney, one big, one regular sized. A one night PPV affair, the tournament to win me doesn’t technically have the same name as me, for I Am What?

Maravilloso has the answer.

What Am I? I’m a thing. The opportunity I should have gotten the guy who won me (Diamond Dallas Page), he didn’t get for a while (and even then he had to win something else to get that), due to a later revoking (by WCW Executive Committee). Despite eight former/future world champions fighting for me (Booker T., Luger, Benoit, Scott Steiner, DDP, , only one future world champ was in the final match of the tournament to win me. The guy who won me was replacing someone else who was injured before the tournament (Bobby Walker). Three tag teams broke apart to fight for me (four if you include the best buddies who weren’t really a tag team but did team often) (Steiners, Luger/Sting, Road Warriors and Harlem Heat). A boot ended two of the matches in the tourney, one big, one regular sized. A one night PPV affair, the tournament to win me doesn’t technically have the same name as me, (BattleBowl) for I Am What?

LORD OF THE RING?

Who am I? I’ve been involved in a Money In The Bank ladder match. I trained under a man who trained many wrestlers, two of whom have posed nude in their careers. My first match in a company was a losing effort against a vampire. Like many a wrestler, after turning heel I lengthened my first name. I was once outsmarted by Howard Finkel. I have used chloroform to get what I want, although it went badly for me overall. I’ve been handcuffed, weird, and my current persona debuted in-ring on a Big 4 PPV. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

Ron starts us off with a Rumble question.

So did you update your Royal Rumble stat sheet yet? Well?

I just wanted to make sure I was the first to bug you, that’s all.

… Which one?

To something out of the Rumble that is a little more serious, Paul has a hypothetical.

So if the iwc is saying reigns is going to suck as champ, what happens if he sets the world on fire and is a good champ? Will the smarks still reject him? And won’t this give the wwe the chance to stuff him down our throats, a la cena, anyway?

Thanks

The majority of the IWC is saying Reigns is gonna suck, although it’s now a slightly smaller majority since the Snow Raw happened and Reigns looked decent for a change. Because the IWC is not a hive mind, it’s a giant ball of voices yelling at each other for most of the time. Even when it seems to mostly agree on a topic, such as Reigns’ chances of working out as champ, they can have the same opinion for wildly different reasons.

Some people hate that it’s not Bryan or Ziggler or Ambrose or the guy they like.

Others dislike the fact that the booking is insulting, or boring, or just not what they would do.

Some hate Reigns because they think he’s boring, or he’s not ready, or over-pushed, or nepotism is at play.

And possibly some people hate him because the little orange man who lives in their shoebox tells them to.

At the end of the day though, I think it’s safeish to say that the majority of the complaints are based around the booking of Reigns, coupled with his perceived talent level. The second can be hidden, if the first is solved well enough.

So if your scenario happens, one of two things happens.

One, somehow a dormant Rock gene kicks in and Reigns becomes ultra entertaining and rises above the backwards booking. In that case, the IWC would probably be ok with it, because Reigns would be interesting.

Or, the booking improves and thus Reigns’ limitations, such as they are perceived, are hidden. And in that case, the major complaint of the IWC is gone and so we’re good again, although that comes with the caveat that if the booking improves in the main event it should also improve elsewhere and thus other people get better storylines as well. If they use all the creative juices on Reigns and the rest of the card is left to flounder, that will be less popular.

Some of the IWC will always be contrarian. And some of the IWC will always be counter-contrarian. But right now, the issue is less about Reigns the guy but the situation he’s in. Like with Cena, it’s the script, not the actors.

So if Reigns gets good enough to rise above lack of rewrites, or the script gets the rewrites it needs, then the IWC will, mostly, probably, be mollified.

To an extent.

And I’m fairly sure Reigns will be shoved down throats regardless of how the IWC thinks of him…

Chris talks about a famous case of overselling.

I just watched Hogans Michaels from SS 05. Did Shawn bump all over the place to put over Hogan’s size or was he being a dick?

He was being a dick.

Michaels had pitched the Hogan/Michaels thing as a face/face epic clash, where he’d challenge Hogan one on one because he just had to know if he could take him, he just had to know if he could stack up to Hogan. They’d have the match at Summerslam, then do a cage match at Unforgiven, and then do a rubber match down the line, because that’s how pro wrestling works. I think Shawn wanted to win the first then lose the cage (since Hogan would now want the match since Shawn beat him deal) but I don’t have a source on that.

But anyway, that’s how Shawn pitches it, everyone is cool… And then Hogan wants face/heel. So Vince asks Shawn to turn heel, and he does so reluctantly, going back to 97/8 Shawn mode, despite telling Vince that the old Shawn would rip Hogan to shreds, Vince telling him that it would be fine, Hogan would understand. So Shawn turned heel for a month or so, and it was GLORIOUS!

As awesome as face Shawn was, I really am sad we didn’t get more of that Shawn at the end there. ‘Who’s Your Daddy, Montreal?’ is one of those lines you never forget.

Anyway, Shawn is out there selling the PPV by himself, having put his character through a wringer a bit, and then Hogan claims his knee is acting up, and/or he gets pissy over the promos, or whatever, there’s not going to be three matches, it’s just gonna be one. And Hogan’s going over.

And so Shawn, already in a bad place mentally given he was delving back into his old habits, now has politics played on him? He took it badly, and so went out there and, instead of sandbagging, went way over the top the other way and was a superball.

Afterwards, there’s been conflicting reports as to Hogan not realising what was going on at the time, and/or that he was so upset about Shawn’s unprofessionalism that he called off the other matches. That last one came from Hogan, I believe.

So yeah, Shawn was being a dick. But Dickish Shawn is Entertaining Shawn, so…

Criss had another question out of the Rumble…

What’s the deal with Cena doing Kevin Owens’ finishing move, the pop-up powerbomb, as a false finish? I’ve seen him do the spot a couple times, the first was the Monday after Owens’ debut on NXT. He did it again in the Rumble triple threat, and Tara knows how many other times.

Look, I know Cena’s the tippy-top #1 Guy, Then. Now. Forever. But does that give him free reign to just steal the new guy’s badass finisher? When Owens makes his WWE debut, is he going to have to change his finish?

No, in the same way that Big Show using a punch doesn’t mean everyone else has to stop using them.

Move ‘theft’ is very common in wrestling, you see a cool move, you try it out, if it works you start to use it yourself. It’s not ‘fair’, sure, but it’s been happening since before wrestling began, so you’re not about to end it now.

Plus, in WWE, it’s probably seen as a compliment/help for Owens, when he does get to the main roster, his finish will be ‘established’ and thus people will know it and they can just do the ‘He’s worked on it longer than Cena’ talking point and it’s over. Assuming they even noticed.

If Cena was using it as a finisher, that would be an issue. And if he was using it as a transition, that would be a problem. But as you said, he’s using it as a false finish, so that’s not that big a deal. And heck, gives Owens a hook for a feud when he comes in, so that’s good, right?

Gary wishes to talk about multi-title holders.

Hi long long time reader

Going through 2001 in the wwe network currently and had a few questions pop up.

1. How many times has a wwe/wwf champion also been a tag champion? And who was the first?

The first man to hold both the World and Tag Titles was Bob Backlund, August 9th, 1980, when Bob, WWF Champion, teamed with Pedro Morales to win the tag titles from The Wild Samoans at the Showdown at Shea event, although they had to vacate the titles immediately because, at the time, you couldn’t hold tag and heavyweight titles at the time.

The second man to do it was Diesel, as he won the tag titles along with IC Champ Shawn Michaels at In Your House 3, although they too had to vacate it the following night due to controversy, i.e. they won the belts via pinning someone not in the match, technically.

The next man to do it was Stone Cold Steve Austin in 98, when he and Taker won the tag straps at Fully Loaded: In Your House off of Kane and Mankind. He did it again in 2001, when the Two Man Power Trip won the tag straps from Taker and Kane at Backlash 2001.

Do WCW titles count while they were in the WWF? Jericho would be next, as later in 2001 he was WCW champ as well as WWF Tag Champion for a week.

In 2004, Benoit was World Heavyweight Champion and World Tag Champ with Edge. A year later Batista was World/WWE Tag Champ as well with Mysterio, followed by Cena being the reverse of that, WWE Champ and World Tag Champ with HBK in 2007.

The last man to do this was The Miz in 2011, when he and John Cena held the tag titles for 15 or so minutes before losing them back to the Corre they won them off.

So all up, 8 or 9 times it has occurred, depending on if you count the WCW while in WWF title or not. And Backlund is the first.

2. How many times has an Ic Champion also been a rag champion? And who was the first?

Diesel was the first, in 1994 when he was both IC and Tag champ with Shawn Michaels for all of a day (see a pattern here?) before losing the IC title to Razor Ramon.

Shawn Michaels then joined him in September 1995, at IYH3 again, for a night at least.

Owen Hart then held both titles in 1996, along with Bulldog being Tag and Euro champ. Ken Shamrock matched this is 99, being Tag/IC champ with Big Bossman, who was Tag/Hardcore champ.

Austin was between these in 1997, his tag team with Dude Love featuring an IC title reign for Austin as well.

In 2001, two men managed it, Triple H during the Two Man Power Trip with Austin, and Test later on decidedly not in the Two Man Power Trip with Booker T.

Kane, in his Freaks Rule phase, was also dual champ in 2002, with Hurricane as his partner.

That’s it for IC, as there has been 4 US/Tag title runs, one under the WCW banner (Kanyon) and three under WWE (Eddie, MVP and Miz). But they’re not IC.

So 8 IC/Tag reigns.

If you fancy it and it’s easy feel free to do so with wcw titles as well

Bret Hart was World and Tag Champ in 1999, but as far as the World/US belts go, I think that’s it. There were a couple of Tag/TV overlaps with Arn and Lex, but WCW tended to keep their titles apart, until Russo got there.

But I’m happy to be corrected if I’ve forgotten anyone.

Self Promotion!

Kyle continues the WCW Title talk.

How did WCW not know that Benoit was going to WWF the day after he won their world title? Why wasn’t anything done with that fact when he debuted in WWF? Was it because WCW was no longer a threat and WWF was so far out of its league by then?

Thanks for the speculation,

The world title win was in hopes of making him and the rest of the Radicals stay. When Sullivan took over the booking, and the US and World titles were vacated, he originally wanted to make Nash, who was also on the booking committee, champ that night, probably via ‘Nash wins Commish job, immediately gives himself title match’ or some such.

But Sullivan was told by those around him that it was a bad idea, as the men who would turn into the Radicals, as well as Shane Douglas and possibly others, were paranoid about Sullivan screwing them over. So he gave the World Title to Benoit in the hopes it would be an olive branch and settle the midcard down. Sid agreed to job, and Sullivan made sure to put the foot under the ropes thing as an out.

But Benoit and the rest weren’t convinced, and so they left anyway. And Sullivan then used his out to explain away the title match.

As for WWF, I think given the fact that a few weeks had passed, and WCW had explained away the result, and they wanted to treat the Radicals as a group and not as Benoit and Friends, (although Benoit was clearly first among equals), they didn’t push Benoit as the uncrowned champ or anything. Plus, as you say, WWF was miles ahead and beyond the general concept of the group, they didn’t need to refer to WCW much at all.

Felipe writes in from Chile!

Hi man, long time reader, first time asker (is that the right word? my english is kind of rusty :c ). I must say that i enjoy reading your column every week, is pretty cool 😛

I’m sorry in advance for any gramathical or orthographic mistake here

Don’t worry dude, I’ve been speaking/writing English most of my life and I still fuck up all the time.

First one question is about William Regal, there was any plan to put the world championship on Regal? if i remember correctly, Regal was kind of over in 06-07,and he was suspended for steroids in that same time. So, there was any plans to put the belt on Regal? And if they were, he didn’t got it because of that suspension?

It’s hard to say, but certainly in 2008 Regal was set for a solid push, with the King of the Ring win, and the General Manager of Raw gig, he was over and in a great spot to get a main event run, and possibly with it, a title reign (that was long overdue in my books).

But the problem was, as he’s said himself, he was in line for a push, so he got paranoid about his looks, and so he took steroids to get into better shape, and got caught. So he has only himself to blame, alas.

The second one is about the Extremely Cute Wrestler, Colin Olsen. Who was the one calling him to go to the WWE? i mean, they have developmental to take guys from. If you ask me, it was kind of risky to take a guy from the indys and putting him on TV right away. Also, i heard that the idea was to bring another guy from the indys, but that guy didn’t answer his phone, so Colin was next in line for the job.

Colin Olsen is Colin Delaney, the rather pale guy with no music in WWECW in 2007/8. His run, although it mirrored in some ways the rise of Mikey Whipwreck in the original ECW, was one of those situations that tends to only happen in Wrestling.

What occurred was that the night before ECW was to tape, several indy wrestlers were at the show in order to be extras. But Michael Hayes decided they were all too small and sent them home, and told them that despite being booked for the following night, not to bother coming in. So one of them, “Fabulous” John McChesney, stayed in Buffalo (the location of the first show) rather than travel to Rochester where ECW was taped. But then he got a call in the afternoon to say there was a spot for him, against Shelton Benjamin. So he hit the road, a 2 hour drive ahead of him. Between that call and his arrival, Brodie Lee (Luke Harper) called his good friend Olsen and said there was a spot open if he could get there. Olsen left his 9-5 job, got to ECW, they loved his look, he went out there, lost to Benjamin, and everyone loved him, so they asked him to turn up the next week.

And the week after.

And the week after that.

McChesney did get to the show in time, but they went with Colin instead, so John got paid for being there, Colin got a contract (for a while).

And yes, WWE has developmental, but sometimes if they like a guy, they can and will use him/her more. See Blue Pants down in NXT.

Third one is about Wrestlemania XIX. Lance Storm said in some podcast that because of the catfight he wasn’t on the main card for that Wrestlemania. I mean, i apreciate a good looking girl in wrestling, but the backstage segments and the catfight itself was dumb to me, if you ask me, the evening gown match in Wrestlemania XX was so much better, made much more sense and the girls on that match were in WWE the next day. So, why this match in WM 19 even happen?

Because the Miller Lite Catfight girls were ‘celebrities’, with one of them actually having history with WWE, as Kitana was part of the HLA antics at Unforgiven 2002. But mainly it was because they were ‘celebrities’ that could be a cool down comedy spot between important matches, get some publicity and more hot chicks on the show.

I don’t think it’s a direct “They bumped the tag match for the Catfight girls” situation as in it was a “The tag titles didn’t get on the show, but the Catfight girls do?” thing. WWE treats shows like a circus, you need a variety of things on the show to keep everyone happy, and if that means bumping a match, they’ll bump a match.

The last one is about in my opinion the best wrestler in history, Eddie Guerrero. What was the plan for the end of his feud with Batista in ’05? There was any plans to put the world heavyweight championship on latino heat before his death?.

No, there wasn’t. People misunderstand comments made by Steph on the tribute show, and it’s become a popular myth that Eddie was going to win the World Title on the night he died.

The booking plans for Eddie on the night were for Orton to win the title due to Eddie not cheating, and then he’d turn on Smackdown and cost them the match at Survivor Series and go heel, and end up fighting The Undertaker at WM… In a casket match.

Yay.

But people get this notion he was meant to win the title due to wishing REALLY hard, and that Steph statement on the tribute show, where she said…

Where we spoke on Friday, he said he’d be champ again.

That wasn’t a “He was booked to win on Smackdown”, but rather a reference to how when he won the WWE Title, it led to a breakdown on his part, how he couldn’t handle the pressure and asked to drop the belt to JBL back in the day. He intended to be strong enough to be champ again, and that was what she meant there.

Eddie wasn’t going to be World Champ that night. Alas.

Raza has us consider various options.

What do you think would be main event of Summerslam 2014, winner of Royal Rumble 2015 and main event of WMXXXI in the following situations

1 Punk remains with WWe in 2014, Bryan did not got injured

2 Punk left, Bryan did not injured

3 Punk remain with WWE, Bryan got injured

Thanx

Honestly? I don’t think any of those would change things, beyond MAYBE Bryan being the one Brock crushes at Summerslam 2014 if he’s not injured, but even then, I can see them still going with Cena, have Cena win it at MITB off Bryan directly in a multi-man match or something.

WWE has known for a long time that Reigns was going to be the guy to be the guy. And as soon as Brock beat Taker, which would have happened with or without Punk, he became the Big Bad of WWE, and for Reigns to be The Guy, Brock had to be the guy he beat, ergo, Reigns/Brock would happen at Wrestlemania, regardless of the undercard.

Punk staying wouldn’t change that. Bryan not being injured wouldn’t change that either, since he was being booked weakly as champ anyway, and thus he would have limped along until either he got to be crushed to begat Brock, or he lost the belt to Cena so the begatting would be more meaningful.

I don’t want to sound cynical about it, but the Bryan and Punk things dovetailed into each other so that one became the solution to the other, and then that fizzled out before they could end it ‘properly’ so they could get back to what they wanted to do.

But perchance someone below is less cynical about the past… But I doubt it.

But hey, prove me wrong people, and we’ll be back next week to see if you did!