wrestling / Columns

Ask 411 Wrestling: Is Mick Foley The True King Of The Gimmick Match?

September 2, 2015 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina

Hello, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling, and I am coming off a bout of what I assume was food poisoning!

Or maybe it was jealousy that another person met My Goddess and got her to say ‘Hi’ to me. I mean, she must be totally sick of saying hello to some giant Aussie idiot she’s never met who’s obsessed with her. I bet she’s just wants to come down here and meet me just to get it over with.

I can hope dammit.

Anyway, my illness hopefully won’t impact on the column too much. Got a question for when I’m not sick? [email protected] is where you should send it.

BANNER!

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! Consider it a get well soon present!

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Earl Hebner’s 100K matches: I tossed it in as a joke because TNA celebrated it, yeah, but while I too am sceptical, it wouldn’t be totally out of left field. I mean, TV tapings in the old days had like 25 matches in a show… I don’t believe the number but if he had a record book that listed them all and it added up I wouldn’t accuse him of lying, if that makes sense.

Ryder/Swagger: Yes, that would be the match of the past 5 years I’d change. It’s symbolic and probably wouldn’t alter that much, if we’re being honest, but one of my major complaints about the current WWE is that they refuse to let unintended popularity help them. In the old days, a guy like Ryder or Santino or whoever would be hired to be a midcard comedy guy, sure, same as today. But in the old days, if such a guy got over, they’d shrug and then push the guy to make themselves money, plus create a tangible connection between the company and the fans, since ‘they’ got a guy up. But WWE wants the brand over, not anyone specific, plus the last time they gave in and put the popular guy over, Bryan fell apart, literally.

From a storytelling perspective, refusing to let guys get over and follow through is frustrating. And from a business standpoint it’s even stupider…

Mind Games: The Mankind title win is something that has been denied by almost everyone who’s spoken on it, but watching the match, seeing how Vince gets off the mic and goes and speaks to both men during the match, the way the match ends… I’ve always maintained they called an audible, with Sid taking Vader out before he touched anyone leading to the Paul Bearer run in, Mankind gets the Claw, Mankind pins Shawn, then Taker appears… It just looks too much like a Mankind win. But I know that I’m going against what Foley said about it, at least. So… *shrugs*

But speaking of…

King Of The Gimmick Match: APinOz makes a strong counter-claim.

You know, you make a fine case for HHH as the king of the number of different gimmick matches. But did you consider Mick Foley? Now, I grant you, Foley hasn’t, to the best of my knowledge, been in the following: Iron Man, Scramble, Elimination Chamber, Lion’s Den or Slop Bucket matches. So that’s 5 off HHH’s list.

However, he HAS been in the following, all of which I’m sure HHH hasn’t: Barbed Wire, Land Mine, King of the Mountain, Penalty Box, Feast or Fired, Full Metal Mayhem, Texas Death, Battlebowl, Six Sides of Steel (I know it’s a cage match, but dammit there are 2 extra sides!), that kooky WCW match which ended with Abdullah the Butcher getting “electrocuted”, Brass Knux and Dumpster. That’s an extra 12. (Fact-checking not my forte but I’m pretty sure he’s been in all of those…)

Well, let’s see, using the profightdb site like I did with Triple H, then adding in a couple Japan matches…

2/3 Falls
Arm Wrestling
Barbed Wire
Battle Royal
Boiler Room Brawl
Buried Alive
C4
Casket
Chamber Of Horrors
Deathmatch
Dumpster
Elimination Tag
Empty Arena
Falls Count Anywhere
First Blood
Flag
Hell In A Cell
House Of Fun
I Quit
King Of The Mountain
Ladder
Last Man Standing
Loser Leaves Town
Lumberjack
Monster’s Ball
Move Banned
No DQ/Hardcore/No Holds Barred/Street Fight
On A Pole
Royal Rumble
Rumble Games
Special Referee
Steel Cage/Six Sides Of Steel
Texas Deathmatch
Wargames
Weapon

I only get to 35, but the thing is, that’s ignoring the various permutations of Deathmatch he was in to some degree. After all, in the King of the Deathmatch tourney, he had three matches, a barbed-wire baseball bat thumbtack death match, a barbed-wire board bed of nails match and a barbed-wire rope barbed-wire and C4 board time-bomb death match. Now the thing is, do you count different names/weapons as a different match? I mean, if you do, then sure, Foley gets over the line I’m sure. But I tend to think one deathmatch is the same as the other, regardless of the weapons, and in that case you could argue that Monster’s Ball/House of Fun are the same as others… Triple H is the winner of the big leagues, Mick might win if you include all the non-US, non-Televised stuff.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I was brought into the world of professional wresting by a tag team specialist, although I was ‘brought in’ by a ‘relative’. My first title was one whose style hasn’t existed for years. My favorite match of my career actually involved an unscheduled run in. I once won the 8th match in a series, I’ve invoked the Freebird rule, I’ve turned face by helping to beat up a manager (and someone else, to be fair), I’ve unified belts on more than one occasion, and had to learn another language to make it in the States. Who am I?

Of course, Maraviloso has the answer for us.

Who am I? I was brought into the world of professional wresting by a tag team specialist,
ROAD WARRIOR ANIMAL
although I was ‘brought in’ by a ‘relative’.
IVAN KOLOFF
My first title was one whose style hasn’t existed for years.
NWA WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (ALTHOUGH I THINK IT’S A REFERENCE TO THE US TITLE)
My favorite match of my career actually involved an unscheduled run in.
VS. RIC FLAIR FOR THE NWA WORLD HEAVEYWEIGHT TITLE @ THE GREAT AMERICAN BASH ’85. A FAN DID A RUN-IN
I once won the 8th match in a series,
AND FINAL MATCH WHEN I BEAT MAGNUM T FOR THE US TITLE
I’ve invoked the Freebird rule,
AS A MEMBER OF THE RUSSIANS WHEN I WAS NWA TAG TEAM CHAMPION
I’ve turned face by helping to beat up a manager (and someone else, to be fair),
JJ DILLON AND OLE ANDERSON
I’ve unified belts on more than one occasion,
NWA US AND NATIONAL TITLES AND NWA AND UWF TV TITLES
and had to learn another language to make it in the States.
RUSSIAN
Who am I?

NIKITA KOLOFF

I meant the six man tag belts there, there haven’t been six man tag belts for years, at least in the big leagues. King of Trios doesn’t really count.

Who am I? I was on the last show of a company, despite starting my career as a grower. I founded a stable that most people don’t know I was part of. Another stable I was in shared part of a name with one of my old ring names. I’ve been friends with Greats, Chairmen and Lottery Winners. A guy who’s worked for WCW, TNA and WWE, and fought bands, bros and big fat guys, I once took someone’s gimmick (sort of) and have a syndrome named after me, I am who?

Getting Down To All The Business

Cracked Heel Crazy Face TugALug Ballshake starts us off, wanting to take a WWE storyline to task.

What were your thoughts on the feud between JBL and HBK? If memory serves correct, disn’t HBK somehow end up working for JBL because he didn’t have any money? From a storyline perspective, wasn’t this a bit of a slap in the face to the fans? I mean, if it were a rookie of some sort, that would make perfect sense. But why in the world would the WWE believe for a second that HBK was really hurting for money? And please don’t say “well Flair is a legend and he’s essentially destitute.” I get that, but at this point Shawn was several years into his final run with WWE and clearly was earning a healthy paycheck. This just seems like crap writing to me, I never could suspend my disbelief for this storyline.

I dunno, I loved the tribute from the totally unrelated SDvR 2010 Story Mode…

That said, while the slave angle is somewhat overdone in wrestling, at least this one has some basis in logic in that the storyline wasn’t that HBK had blown his money on wine, women, and song or anything, but that his and his family’s lives were in trouble because of the Global Financial Crisis had wiped out Shawn’s life savings, and thus he needed a boost of cash quickly to ensure his family would be secure long term.

Now you can argue about if the storyline was in good taste (I’m not entirely sure) or if the people involved were doing their best (I think they were) or even if it all mattered in the end (if the point was to get to HBK/Taker it’s all a bit beside the point…) but there was a somewhat solid basis in the storyline’s origins. Certainly it was what everyone was focused on in the real world at the time, so there was a decent enough chance that the audience would have at least heard of it coming in.

Kyle asks if there’s a rope that isn’t pulling its weight.

Former writer (K.) Sawyer Paul was wondering about the middle rope’s purpose on Twitter “What’s the point of the middle rope? […] There’s plenty of benefits of the middle rope. Wrestlers have put it to great creative use. But I’m still not sure of its primary purpose.” So why do wrestling rings have 3 ropes? If the answer is “because boxing rings did when wrestling solidified” then why did boxing rings have 3 ropes? Why didn’t wrestling rings switch to 4 ropes when boxing largely did?

Well its primary purpose is to allow you to climb up to the top rope easily without having to jump up four or so feet in one bounce, it is there to allow ease of climbing. If we’re being honest.

However, it does have a role in the construction of a ring. A boxing ring is basically a walled off platform. Originally with two ropes, it now has four ropes that have some give in them but aren’t there to be bounced off really, they’re there to designate the area where the boxing/kickboxing is, with a barrier that is clear but has some give so if you run into it you’re not hurt. The base of a boxing ring is solid, there’s very little if any give in it, maybe a little padding on top to protect the ring/look nice.

Whereas a wrestling ring is designed differently, it’s more of a tension thing. The only tension in a boxing ring is the little bit that keeps the ropes loose but straight, the ring itself is solid. But most wrestling rings need tension in them so that the top rope can be nice and taut and thus have give so you can run them but be solid/springy enough to jump off. This is usually achieved by having tight cross ropes under the wing that pull opposite corners towards each other, then the ring part acts as a block, and then the ropes above pull on the top of the turnbuckle posts, creating a slight curve, as the posts are pulled against the ring, the whole thing under tension. So while the bottom rope in this situation is somewhat useless (it tends to be loose) the middle one has to be a middle ground, tight enough that the ring is under tension but loose enough that the top one doesn’t have to be like steel.

It’s kinda hard to explain without a ring handy, but suffice to say that it serves a minor purpose in most rings in terms of set up and being secure, officially it’s an integral part of the ring set up, but really, at the end of the day, it’s there to be used as a ladder to the top rope.

Cody had a few questions, but I got tired after just this one.

In your opinion, does the “average” wrestle expend more energy on offence or selling? Might it depend on the style involved?

Depends on a whole lot of factors. The style of the wrestler, the style of the opponent, the style of the company, position on the card, storyline of the match… That said, to try and give generalisations, I suppose it’s a bit of a flow chart.

Q1: Are you a big fat bastard? If yes, then since your selling will mostly be just wobbling and such, you’ll expend most energy on offence. If no, go to question 2.

Q2: Is there a long beatdown in the middle of the match’s structure? If yes, then go to Q2A. If no, go to Q3.

Q2A: Are you the heel? If yes, you’ll spend more energy on offence. If not, you’ll spend more energy on selling.

Q3: Are you a flippy guy wrestling someone larger? If yes, you’ll spend more energy on selling, probably. If not, go to Q4.

Q4: Are you a power guy wrestling someone smaller? If yes, you’ll spend more energy on offence, probably.

If none of the above applies, then it comes down to your conditioning, ability, and the match itself. But as a general rule, heels spend more time on offence and thus theoretically that’s where more energy goes, and vice versa. But it is widely variable.

Connor asks a question about how someone kept a job for so long. And it’s not me!

how did Buff Bagwell have a job with WCW as long as he did? the guy was absolutely terrible

Hey hey, nWo Buff Bagwell between joining the nWo through to around the time WCW blew a chance to make a star with his broken neck was an awesome douchebag prick who you wanted very much to punch repeatedly in the face or, failing that, see other people punch him repeatedly in the face.

That said, Buff had a job for so long because of two main schools of thought. The first was the period before he joined the nWo, where he worked mainly in tag teams, in Stars and Stripes, American Males and such, where he was Marcus Bagwell, all round good guy all American pretty boy teen heartthrob fiery white hot white meat young hip babyface cool kid and great wrestler that you should totally love because he’s just such a wholesome good kid who is nice and good and FOR GOD’S SAKE LOVE THIS MAN PLEASE!!!

Ahem.

Anyway, WCW kept him around for years because they genuinely believed that he would and could be the next heartthrob teen icon type, so they stuck to their guns, gave him endless pushes and tag reigns and commentary blowjobs and the like, and it never quite stuck. He was over to some degree, but never to the point that WCW wanted him to be. And then they decided to say screw it, and turned him heel and join the nWo.

… That WCW ramp allowed for some pretty cool spots, you know. Why can’t we get that arena in a WWE game?

And then Buff Bagwell was born, and while in ring he wasn’t great he was over though. Probably because he was one of the few nWo midcarders who made an effort at being different and not just there to fill out space. And as the obnoxious pretty boy douchebag heel, he got over and thus was kept around because he was over and such. People bought him and Scott Steiner as a duo, he was an upper-mid guy with some credibility.

And then Rick Steiner broke his neck.

That was the point that it all went bad, since when Bagwell came back he was a step behind where he was, plus instead of running the obvious angle wherein Bagwell as a top guy who people want to cheer for goes after Scott Steiner and Hulk Hogan by teaming with the guy who broke his neck because Scott and Hulk are just the worst people ever, they blow it by having him rejoin the nWo upon his return.

Then he stuck around because he was youngish and an older hand, I guess. Once his mother got involved I can’t really defend him too much. But everything up to the point he got up out of his wheelchair and revealed an nWo shirt, he was either a guy WCW thought would be the next big babyface superstar or an acceptably over douchebag prick.

Manu Bumb asks about a doco.

in the august 26th column, reader Mike referenced a Kliq documentary that the BBC made that was about 2 hours – do you know a link for that?

I googled it, and found this video on youtube, but its only an hour long, and part of the name is “Kliq rules,” which is the same name as the recent release

Is that it? Or is there another one I didn’t find? And if that’s it, is it the same as the one WWE released, or a different cut?

Ah, see now what has happened there is fairly common, in that the video Manu linked to that I have removed is a link to someone who has uploaded an hour of the Kliq Rules DVD to youtube with ‘BBC Documentary’ in the header for the purposes of trying to avoid mentioning WWE in hopes it won’t be deleted. See, BBC has nothing to do with the doco, it’s all WWE, people have just used BBC as a smokescreen, I guess. It’s the same DVD as WWE put out, so you can find copies of that for sale on Amazon and the like, since there’s no other way to get something than by buying it.

MrB asks about TNA stupidity.

I recently read the 10th Anniversary Edition of The Death of WCW. The book ends with a list of ridiculous things TNA has done to show they haven’t learn from what happened to WCW. I’ve never been a regular viewer of TNA so I’ve never heard of a lot of stuff on the list. I narrowed it down to the few weirdest sounding ones, I’m hoping you can help me out and explain:

1. A couple points on the list reference a “lumberjack cage match.” The point of a cage match is to escape, the point of a lumberjack match is to not be able to escape, so, huh?

That would be on Impact, 28th of July, 2011. Kurt Angle, thorn in Immortal’s side, was set to take on Mr. Anderson, Anderson being volunteered by Bully Ray to take out Kurt Angle. Just a normal match. So far, so good.

Then, Sting reveals to Eric Bischoff, co-leader of Immortal, that he is now the Network Representative, a role that until a few weeks prior had been filled by Mick Foley. Sting, who at the time was playing an insane version of his persona, ripped off totally from taking subtle notes from Heath Ledger’s Joker, then says his first order of business is to make the Angle/Anderson match a steel cage match (fair), with pinfall, submission, or escape rules (fine) and that Fourtune, a group of five guys who recently broke away from Immortal, will be at ringside to prevent interference from Immortal.

Later on Sting reveals he was lying about being the Network rep, but has a crow scare Bischoff into staying in his office and thus be unable to change the match.

So while you can level a lot of crap at TNA, it’s not really fair to say it was a lumberjack cage match, Fourtune wasn’t meant to be there to fulfil the usual role of lumberjacks, it’s more that they were enforcers than anything.

2. Two undefeated wrestlers were put in a match against each other with the stipulation that neither man’s undefeated streak was on the line. Who were the guy’s and how did that work?

I really don’t know what that one is referring to. I think it might be a case where someone who was undefeated went up against someone else who was undefeated but they didn’t play up the fact that there was a streak ending, maybe? Like somewhere in either Joe or Crimson’s run (assuming EC3 was too late for that book) they fought someone undefeated and didn’t make mention of the fact. Maybe.

I’ll try and get in touch with the authors and seek clarification on that.

3. When Eric Bischoff first appeared on TNA he tore up the script on live TV, later security had to go into the crowd to get the pieces because it was the actual script. I’m not saying the author’s made that up, I just need to somebody to verify that that’s really true because that’s a mind blowing level of stupid. First stupid for ruining any suspension of disbelief by reminding people what they’re seeing is all scripted, and then stupid for throwing the real script into the crowd so they can read what they’re about to see. Wow.

That would be the first night of the WWE/TNA Monday Night ‘War’.

Sorry, I mean this video here. January 4th, 2010

At least they didn’t call it a script. But if you watch the people who catch it there, they start to read the bits of paper they catch, and so yeah, presumably when they thought that bit through, they didn’t get a fake format printed up. Sadly the guards coming to nab it must of occurred during the break as the next segment, there’s no guards milling about.

William asks about Mr. Hashtag himself.

Another thing I thought about during TakeOver was Tyler Breeze’s eventual call up to the main roster. More of an asking for your opinion than a question – how do you rate his chances on the main roster, and if you were him, how would you be wanting to tweak your character to increase your chances as a success (eg bearing in mind the track record of very gimmicky NXT call ups like the Ascension and Adam Rose).

Honestly, as it stands now, I’m not so sure Tyler would want to be called up any time soon, at least thinking long term. I’m sure he would love to be paid more for what he does and all that, but he’s not big enough to be free of worry about Vince not getting him, nor is he small enough he can sell himself as a flippy guy. Don’t get me wrong, I like the guy, but right now he’s neither an indy darling who Vince can be persuaded to call up based on that, nor is he a giant ass kicker who Vince would want to call up, response be damned. In the unlikely event he’s called up and given some time to develop, he’ll be fine, but I’m not sure how likely that is.

Now, if I were him, and I wanted to increase my likelihood of getting in the door safe and sound? I’d be keeping an eye on the incoming trainees, and find a giant tall muscular dude, preferably one with good hair, Radomir Petković would be the guy if I had to pick someone right now, and then beg to let him be brought in as Branko (Serbian for “glorious protector” apparently), your bodyguard/paparazzi handler/The One Man Entourage, and then remind Vince how much he loved the Shawn Michaels/Diesel dynamic. Yes, small blonde pretty boy/big tall muscular dude has been done many times, but that’s because it works. Convince the writers to bring you in as a duo, play off social media a bit since I’m sure everyone but Vince is sick and tired of having to play to it, then eventually you can do the blow up angle and then you hope that your talent and such will keep you in safety while Vince tries to push Branko on top.

Just to be clear, I like Tyler Breeze, and I think he could do well in the big leagues, as it were. But if you’re being honest, he’s not going to get the chance to do so without some manipulation.

Anthony takes us back to one of the longest standing booking changes in wrestling history.

The original bracket for the WM4 tournament had Rude/Jake at the top of the bracket and Dibiase/Duggan at the bottom. Any idea what what the play out plan was originally with this version and why it was changed?

The original plans were that Wrestlemania IV would end with Ted DiBiase winning the tournament, becoming WWF Champion, thank you, goodnight. Then Ted drops the belt to either Hogan or Savage at Summerslam. Probably Hogan

Hence, when you look at the original bracket…

I’d say the card would go like this. DiBiase over Duggan, Bam Bam/Gang is a no contest, Savage over Reed, Valentine over Steamboat, Bravo over Rock, Snake over Rude. Round 2, Hogan beats Andre, Bravo beats Snake, Savage beats Valentine, DiBiase gets a bye. Round 3, Hogan beats Bravo by DQ due to beatdown, DiBiase cheats to beat Savage. Finals, DiBiase cheats even more to beat a really weakened Hogan, runs away with title.

As for why it was changed, that’s an old story. Honky Tonk Man refused to put over Savage for the IC title, so instead of DiBiase winning the WWF Title, they went with option 2, Savage wins WWF Title, DiBiase makes his own belt. According to Ted, both plans were on the table, and he preferred the second one since it didn’t mean he had to be one and done with Hogan in a program.

So yeah, it was changed to allow Savage to beat DiBiase in the finals because Honky Tonk Man held Vince up. Butterfly Effect and all that.

Mark asks if the Network has ruined a long standing wrestling subculture.

I own all WWE, WCW, ECW PPV’s as well as years of Raw and ECW TV as well as all Saturday Nights Main Event and Clash of the Champions and a whole host of shoot interviews on DVD. A couple of years ago this collection would have been well sort after and worth a substantial amount of cash but I have tried to get rid of them in the usual way, (ebay, gumtree, facebook forums etc..), and there have been no takers. So my question is this – with the WWE Network, Youtube and other sources now making wrestling content so easy to find has it brought an end to fans wanting to own a physical copy of wrestling events in the form of DVD’s and tapes? Or have people fallen out of love with wrestling so much that they no longer want to own or watch such events/productions? I am interested in both your opinion and the comment section response.

Well the comment section will, of course, have to answer for themselves.

As for me, the rise of the internet has both widened and narrowed this field. It’s widened it in the sense that now anyone who wants to get into wrestling can find and view wrestling from all over the world, almost instantly.



So there’s a lot more people interested and able to watch wrestling beyond the old school tape trader days. That’s good.

But on the other hand, as you say, the market for people willing and interested in owning physical copies of this stuff has narrowed a lot. There’s always going to be people who like having physical copies, there’s always going to be a small group who like being able to run a finger across their huge stacks, or at the very least gaze with contentment at the size of their hard drive, they will never go away. But they sure as hell are harder to find.

Worse still, a good chunk of them are right this moment keeping an eye on their seeding ratios and constantly reloading, waiting for someone to upload the last ROH show already. To that group of people, paying money is a foreign concept, or at least for the most part one they really don’t like.

Mike asks about the shimmy shake.

Recently I have noticed the camera shots “jerk” in WWE every time someone throws a punch, kick, body slam or finishing move. It looks very unprofessional and obscures the move. Is this done to hide what is actually being done?

Sort of. This is Kevin Dunn taking a cue from Wrestling Society X, according to scuttlebutt.

See, WWE has always used camera tricks, they would often, in the old days, if they could, switch camera angles right a move would hit, so that you would never see the space between the body parts involved. But since they rarely had lots of cameras, the effect was limited.

Then they got more cameras, so it became more frequent.

And then WSX came along, and now, after that, every move gets a camera shake for emphasis and to ‘draw you in’ and hide any lack of impact but, most of all, annoy the fuck out of you because fuck you, customer!

I don’t like Kevin Dunn.

And on that shocking revelation…

I bid you goodbye for another week. Hopefully I feel better next time.