Ask 411 Wrestling: Is WWE Sabotaging Itself?

Hello, and welcome to something that really only exists so I can share the video in the middle of this column, Ask 411 Wrestling! I am your thing bringer, Mathew Sforcina, and lots of stuff to talk about before and after the thing.

I’ll admit I’m building the thing up a bit, but it still makes me mark out even when I both know what is coming and came up with a bit of it, so whatever, let’s get to the questions and answers.

Got one of those and want the other? Preferably not the Jeopardy style? [email protected] is where you send it.

ALTERNATE BANNER~!

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! Got a new twitter posting feed, which I’m sure you care about.

Me On Twitter~!
WWE Turn Alerts on Twitter~~!!
http://www.twitter.com/411mania
http://www.twitter.com/411wrestling
http://www.twitter.com/411moviestv
http://www.twitter.com/411music
http://www.twitter.com/411games
http://www.twitter.com/411mma

Feedback Loop

Vince is Stubborn, Balor/Owens/Styles Prove Otherwise: There’s a difference between someone being stubborn and someone being stupid. I will give Vince credit for not being Ole Anderson or Verne Gagne, Vince will push new talent since he realises that he can’t run the same people on top forever, especially when the guys he’d ‘want’ to use are injured and/or filming TV shows. However, if you’re gonna tell me that WWE’s booking overall isn’t horribly out of touch 95% of the time with what the fans want or what would put on a good show, that I disagree with. But of course, being that I’m not in the production meetings I cannot categorically say Vince is being stubborn, all I can do is look at how long and hard Roman Reigns is being pushed and draw inferences from that.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I’ve wrestled on WWF, WCW, and ECW PPVs. I’ve won World Heavyweight and World Light Heavyweight titles. At one point I was in a stable with two future WCW Champions, albeit under a different name and gimmick for one. My final appearance as my first WWF gimmick involved a inter tag team fight. I was drafted from the bench to Raw during the first ever WWE Draft, although that wasn’t where I ended up for most of the rest of my run in the company. Last seen in WWE as a talking head on the network, and whom held one belt a lot of times, I am who?

RipStamps has the answer for us.

ECW/NWA World champion and WCW lightheavyweight champ, Diamond mine Stable with DDP and Vinnie Vegas (Kevin Nash), managed Quebecer Pierre as Johnny Polo vs Quebecer Jacques, appeared on history of hardcore title special on the network, WWE Hardcore champion about 27 times.

You are Raven

Who Am I? I share something vaguely similar to something in the thing the intro was hyping. I live in sin. I took a couple moves from someone else based on my beating them up. Video exists of me at a indy show, possibly involving drugs, and a woman called Caroline. Despite debuting on the big leagues in a team, I’ve not held tag team gold in said big leagues. I’ve won PWI awards, Slammys, and RS awards. The longest reigning holder of a specific title (in a specific company), and a guy who got tryouts in TNA and ROH, I am who?

Getting Down To All The Business

…

I’m very disappointed that no-one asked who is going to win the Royal Rumble. I mean, it’s not like I had this grand big thing planned out wherein I’d give a logical reason why some other guy would win it, then reveal my true choice on the last column before the Rumble or anything, no no, I just thought…

I guess I shouldn’t have called it a running gag so early, huh?

Why didn’t you just pretend that someone-

I don’t make up questions! These are all questions that have been sent in to me, such as this one, from Michael.

What do you think are the worst/most overrated/dumbest finishing moves in wrestling history and the most underrated/appreciated? Worst-I’d go with the People’s elbow, Jimmy Valiant’s elbow, Ron Garvin’s punch, the RnR express double dropkick, and Scotty Too Hottie’s worm and the most underrated being Buddy Landell’s elbow and Buzz sawyer’s powerslam.

I firmly disagree with each of your worsts on the basis that every one of those moves could be done to anyone, anywhere, any time, all day long. Yes, the Worm, for instance, is stupid in terms of logic, but at the end of the day, it got a heck of a reaction, and was safe as heck and anyone from Steve Austin to Stacy Keiber could take it.

A wrestling finisher doesn’t have to ‘make sense’ in an actually hurt you way, it just has to be pushed and look cool and/or unique and/or memorable. Moves like Liger’s Palm Thrust or HBK’s Sweet Chin Music are textbook examples on how to make a simple finisher work, do it enough, do it well, and get wins with it, and voila, you have an over, effective finisher.

Sure, if you can safely pull off a Burning Hammer on anyone, by all means do that and become the most over and hated person in wrestling, but I will never rag on anyone for having a simple, easy move as a finisher. My scorn for finishers goes to stuff like the Overdrive/Playmaker, the Canadian Destroyer, stuff like that. The Destroyer especially, it’s impressive as hell, yes, but to me it’s just far too messy in terms of who can take it and when and where.

Underrated? Heart Punch. Totally safe, no matter who takes it, when, where, how. And the idea, a blow to the heart, enough to mess with your heartbeat, that’s sellable.

How about you guys and girls and everyone in-between?

Jorge wonders about Hogan/Flair at Wrestlemania… 9.

We have all know the story (from interviews, podcasts, columns, etc.) about why WWF did not go with Flair vs. Hogan at Wrestlemania 8 in 1992. No need to rehash that. But I wonder… was that match ever discussed or in the cards for Wrestlemania 9 in 1993? Flair was granted his release in January 1993 and lost a “loser leaves town” match with Mr. Perfect ending his time with the company (although his contact didn’t end until the Fall of 93). Meanwhile, Hogan came back in February 1993 to shoot the Beefcake/Money Inc. angle for Wrestlemania 9 (which kept him out of the WWF title picture… or so we thought). Wouldn’t it have made sense to hold off on Flair’s departure, and have a “Loser Leaves Town” Hogan/Flair match at Wrestlemania 9? Hogan can conquer the NWA/WCW star, Flair still goes out doing the honors and receives his early release, and it keeps them both out of the title picture for the show. And I imagine it would’ve popped the ppv buyrate, at least compared to what they ended up with. Like I said, we’ve all heard the reasons about WM8, but not anything for WM9.

WM9 was a weird show, due to all the politics and various factors and things pulling on various threads. Apart from Bret/Yoko, the entire show was in a state of flux heading in, plans changed all the time, such that Flair didn’t really have any match at the show planned, because by the time Flair might have been slotted into something, he wanted to leave, as Bill Watts in WCW wanted him ASAP, and Flair was unhappy, given that he was being phased out and down the card, so a PPV match for him wouldn’t make too much sense. Especially when Hogan as well was supposedly being moved into a special attraction role. I can see the argument that if both of them were being moved into part time roles, albeit different levels of part time, why not stick them together?

But by the time Flair left, he was no longer a NWA/WCW guy, he was another WWF guy, that was part of the problem as to why the Hogan/Flair program didn’t work out well when it was planned. Without the title, it’s not really that big a deal, it’s just two guys fighting rather than the two champions of the world finally facing off. The main reason I don’t think it would have happened though, is that it wouldn’t have helped Hogan, he was already as over as he would ever be, it probably wouldn’t have helped the buyrate all that much, as Flair wasn’t a draw, and finally it wouldn’t have hurt Flair. Losing to Hogan, well everyone loses to Hogan. Flair losing on PPV against Hogan and having to leave is a little embarrassing, but not exactly unexpected. Losing on Raw, to a midcard guy like Perfect though, it made Raw more important, made Perfect look better, plus hurt Flair more to lose a match like that to a midcard guy.

I’ve never heard of Flair/Hogan at WM9 being thought of, and while I can see the logic, I don’t think it would have been that good an idea.

Subsequently, if you could go back in the time machine, how would you have booked that feud leading up to WM9?

I wouldn’t, I’d be off ripping off Biff Tannen and putting a little money on the Cubbies at the start of the year.

But ok, it’s part of the deal for the time machine, I have to book Hogan/Flair…

Instead of a loser leaves town, Flair challenged Perfect to a unique 2/3 falls match, where to win you have to pin your opponent and make them submit. Perfect accepts, gets the first fall with a Perfect Plex, Flair comes back with a figure four that Perfect submits to after several long moments, and then Perfect gets an Indian Deathlock on Flair, Flair’s about to give up, the ref checks on him… Bobby Heenan gets up from commentary, blasts Hennig with the ringbell or something, Flair gets the pin.

Heenan is ‘temporarily suspended’ from doing commentary, and Flair takes him back on as ‘Personal Ring Announcer’. Flair spends next few shows getting totally outclassed by all the new superstars of the New Generation, only winning because of Heenan on the outside, Heenan picking his spots carefully, only ever getting involved when he can win it Flair.

Then Flair fights Beefcake, in Beefcake’s return to the ring.

Beefcake is good, and has Flair rattled, but ring rust, plus Heenan on the outside, means Beefcake ends up staring at the lights after Heenan gets Flair’s feet on the ropes, and Flair comes back with a low blow into a roll up. Beefcake is pissed, goes after Flair, and then Luger, who debuted the week before, runs out and the three of them smash a mirror over Beefcake’s face.

Flair and Luger mention in passing how they are ‘old friends’ and explain that with Flair’s guidance Luger will become unstoppable, and with Luger’s talents Flair will be unstoppable, and Heenan is Heenan so that’s a double win, and here’s Hogan!

Brother this, believe in Hogan that, screw you Flair, I want you at WM, loser leaves WWF. Flair says no, Hogan beats Luger on a Raw to get the match, during the match at WM Beefcake makes his return to send Luger packing from ringside and give Heenan a spanking or something, Hogan runs through the formula on Flair, sends him packing, Luger declares that he didn’t need an old man anyway, Heenan’s suspension is lifted, and Hogan still probably wins the title anyway because Hogan will be Hogan.

Botchamania, first off.

So, THE THING!

It stands up as is, I think, but as context: Newy Pro’s big show of the year, the Anniversary Show, is also the Halloween show, so there’s dressing up. Brian Seeker, master of the Heatwave DDT, has been tormenting lovable loser Big Fudge these past few months. Fudge retired for like 5 minutes before Seeker prodded him into accepting this match. And then…

And I’m not hyping this just because I’m in the video and because the 10 bell gimmick was my idea. Honest.

Damian asks about the Stuff.

Any idea what has led to Buff Bagwell being essentially blacklisted by the WWE since 2001? Sure he didn’t have the drawing power of Goldberg or Flair, but considering we’ve seen the Nasty Boyz, Tatanka, Headbangers, New Age Outlaws and many others over the years, how has Buff never been given even a cameo appearance? This seems on par with the Macho Man exclusion, yet all I can find is that he had a fight with Shane Helms in a training center and got bust open with what sounds like a frozen bottle of water (While Helms denies it was frozen, he admits blood was everywhere and a soft water bottle isn’t going to do that). Buff was fairly popular and easily a bigger name than almost anyone that came in during the Invasion.

I’ve heard the story of him having his mum call in regarding this head injury, but listening to various interviews including the 2015 one on Stone Cold’s podcast, Bagwell’s story has always been consistant. He denies she called, says he gave up a one month free pay on his WCW deal to come in early and basically got screwed based on a reputation. The banning of his hat and last second at the curtain being told he can’t look at cameras (essentially his whole gimmick), the WCW match being booked one week before they go to a WCW town, in a town bound to be hostile and hurt the match etc… Jim Ross denies any involvement, yet his story has had slight inconsistencies over his various re-tellings, he also seems to hesitate and sound quite dishonest when telling it. Add to that with his public burial of Bagwell on a roundtable video and Buff seems to be the one telling the truth? Is this simply a case of WWE making an example out of the only expendable name they had (Booker T was needed, nobody else was a huge name that came in immediately) who they felt might be a problem anyway if his reputation and Helms incident were anything to go by? A sort of “we fired Bagwell, so the rest of you need to watch it and do it our way” kind of thing?

I don’t know if I’d say Bagwell as a bigger name than anyone else they brought in, but he was certainly on a level where they could have pushed him, sure. However as you say, Bagwell has a story which he sticks to, which coincidently makes him good, while Ross and the WWF in general have a story that makes him look horrible.

I think, trying to remain neutral here, the issue is that Bagwell came in and was perhaps expecting a somewhat friendlier environment then what was there. A big issue with the InVasion was that there was an Us V Them attitude, that the WWF guys resented the WCW guys on the basis that these guys were trying to beat us before and now they should be kissing our asses since we have given them jobs and they’re not so fuck them etcetcetc, an attitude that by most accounts Vince encouraged rather than dispel, out of this stupid idea that it would lead to a more compelling product if guys really hated each other.

So imagine that all the guys you’re now working with either dislike you by default and are looking for reasons to hate you, or are walking on eggshells because they don’t want to get attacked and stigmatised. Now imagine that you are a little bit of a dick, or at least act a bit dickish because that’s just who you are, at this point in your life. You miss training sessions you’re ask to attended, for whatever reason, you are told not to do certain things in your match but you do them anyway because you know it’s the best way to get over, you get into a fight with someone over something stupid (the aftermath of which is that the guy who attacked you first is now ‘in’ with the WWF guys and you’re further hated) and finally a notorious bully on the WWF side gives you a stupidly stiff powerbomb, you raise this issue, perhaps not in a very diplomatic way, and said bully calls you a pussy and gives you an even harder one.

If all that happened, would it really surprise you that WWF would choose to let you go? I mean, it’s either sit down with the entire roster and explain that they’re all to work together in order to get more money than god, and thus you should all pull your heads in and stop with this petty primadonna nonsense, whatever the flavor, and get on with the job of drawing all the money, or you fire one guy.

Regardless of if you consider Buff to be in the complete wrong, the complete right, or somewhere in the middle, at the end of the day he just wasn’t fitting in with the company at that point, so they let him go. And WWF only tends to bring back guys who worked well for them, or whom have a direct link to someone big for them now, or who makes one of their long gone competitors look bad. Bagwell didn’t do well for them, has no major connection to anyone there, and did alright in WCW. So yeah, he’s a soft blackball. Unless something radical changes, WWE isn’t ignoring him, but he’s not getting a call anytime soon.

Brian asks if WWE is trying to help SD out…

I don’t watch Raw/SD any more but I read the recaps every week and SD sounds like it’s a far superior show and I was wondering why. When they did the brand split, it seemed like SD got kinda shafted at first but it’s worked out well for them. Are the performers just doing better or is it possible that they are intentionally holding Raw back to try to establish SD as an equal player and remove the long standing B-Show tag from it?

No, it’s because Raw is three hours long.

*1/8 of a Chandler*

WWE would never make one whole brand suck just to help the other. They might bury a guy or a division, they might turn a brand into one big plan to get one guy over, they might sabotage one brand indirectly to teach the guy they put in charge of it something, but they’re almost certainly not making Raw suck in order to make SD look better.

It’s just that Raw being three hours is just such a drain, and with that much time and WWE’s current inability to fill it smartly, the negatives on Raw, the misuse of good talents, the over reliance on doomed pushes, the fixation on creating records at the expense of storytelling and effective promotion, they’re all highlighted more, whereas SD has a tighter brand, a tighter show, so the negatives aren’t as glaring, and thus the positives seem better.

Because SD isn’t a perfect show, by any approximation. But Raw is a lot worse, so SD lookes better out of it, but it’s not deliberate, it’s just WWE’s faults become more obvious with three hours to fill.

BuddhaRock asks if stuff has fallen.

I am simply curious to know if there have been any ladder matches where the belt (or whatever prize they are fighting for) has fallen to the ground. What would the rules be at that point? Would they call it a no contest? Would they stop the match to rehang it? Or, would the wrestlers scramble to see who grabs it first?

There was an Ultimate X match where this happened twice. First time, they got out a ladder and rehung it, leading to the audience demanding they use the ladder which I can understand why they didn’t, but on the other hand they probably should have, then the second time Petey Williams caught it and they gave up and declared him the winner. Here we go, Bound For Glory 05.

You don’t need to buy anything for that, TNA shared it so… Yay?

I’ll admit, as far as screwups go, that one kinda sorta worked given who caught it.

Apparently Chuck Taylor winning a CZW MITB-style contract was a mistake as the guy who was supposed to win dropped it or something and it fell into his hands, but I wasn’t able to find data on that one.

So, TNA restarted it once then gave up, but that has special rules given that it’s an Ultimate X match and thus they have the ‘you gotta climb the ropes’ rule in place. In any other ladder match, it would probably be a case of the first person to grab the belt/whatever by themselves would win. So yes, there would be a scramble, and the first person to get it wins.

Or, you could do like in WCW, and just keep wrestling because dammit, you had spots to run!

Connor asks why Vince didn’t just go with the original underdog.

Did Vince ever try and hire Mikey Whipwreck? He would of made a good addition to the Cruiserweight division

He worked the ECW One Night Stands, wrestling on the 05 show, and celebrating RVD’s title win in the 06 show, so technically he was? But no, he never on WWE’s radar, and in fact after WCW and ECW folded, he gave himself a year or so before he would retire, unless WWE hired him. They didn’t, he retired, he came back, but now he seems to be permanently retired from in-ring work.

That said, he’s since gone on record saying that he isn’t sure he could handle five nights a week, so even if Vince did suddenly decide he wanted Whipwreck, he may not have lasted too long. He did get an offer to be a trainer in FCW but chose to stay where he was at the time as he had a good job and a family, so there has been at least one attempt at hiring him, so there’s that.

Mal Machine asks about a famous ball take.

I have always thought Steve Austin was in the right when he ‘took his ball and went home’ in 2002. If the WWE had of built up to Austin v Lesnar on PPV, with Lesnar going over, I think it would have been huge. While Lesnar went over Rock just a few months later, I think it would have been bigger for him to beat Austin, as he was and arguably still is the most over wrestler of all time. Personally I think Austin was a victim of this twice in 2002! I think if an agreement had of been reached with Hogan, Wrestlemania 18 would have done record breaking numbers. The business went into an all round decline from mid 2002 that last many years. I think the booking of Stone Cold Steve Austin played a small part in this. Just how much money do you think the WWE left on the table by not properly building to Austin v Lesnar in 2002?

Austin’s booking in 02 was a problem, because the heel turn hurt him, but he was still popular, but he was breaking down, and so you couldn’t reliably focus on him, but then why have him on the show if you’re not going to focus on him since he’s such a huge star, but if you treat him like a big star then people will expect a level he can’t do and it’s a big problem overall.

However, while I agree that Austin/Hogan would probably have drawn more money at Wrestlemania, I think Hogan/Rock would be a better match, in terms of how it worked out. Regardless, I think the idea with Austin/Brock on PPV, with build, it probably would have drawn well, and more importantly it would have helped solidify Brock long term, I still think there was a third option, in that doing a wild brawl for the KOTR match where both men throw bombs for like 15 seconds, then Heyman slides in a chair, and Austin gets it first, cracks it over Brock’s head, and gets DQed while Brock no-sells it, that could have worked, plus would have been a start point for a few months later when you start the proper build.

Short term, they lost a few buys. Long term, Brock was fine without the rub, but he could have used it, sure. But overall while I agree with Austin’s basic point, he could have handled it better.

And he agrees.

Joseph asks about people facing adversity.

Has there ever been a wrestler who was legitimately scarred, disfigured, or burned?

Sure, the vast majority of them having gotten scarred, disfigured and/or burned because of their time in pro wrestling. Abdullah the Butcher didn’t get into wrestling because his forehead was all messed up like that already, years of blading did that.

Likewise there are wrestlers who are famous because of disfigurements (Zach Gowen) or are disfigured because of a medical condition that, in part, is why they become wrestlers (Great Khali and Andre The Giant, for instance, with their acromegaly).

Burned… That doesn’t ring a bell. I know a couple wrestlers retired after being in car accidents that gave them burns, be it fire or road rash, but wrestlers who were actually burned then wrestled… Readers?

First person to say Kane gets a smack.

Building off of that, let’s say that there was a wrestler who had a face that–by all conventional standards–was disfigured or really badly burned. If he/she is signed to the WWE, do you think that the ‘E would be inclined to make this person a Face due to the increased corporate atmosphere and present an image to the public that the E is progressive and encourages anyone with a disfigurement to be a role model?

Not automatically, if the person involved was really good at being a heel, they’d go with it, they’d just put them under a hood or they’d make it very clear that no-one, at least on air, is allowed to mention their looks as a negative. Fans will, of course, because wrestling fans are jerks, but you’d want to establish them as a heel so you can do the Beauty and the Beast angle where a female wrestler sees through the ugliness and sees the beauty inside and then they become a couple until she turns on him to hook up with some good looking but bland heel and you then have your super heroic babyface with scaring who everyone wants to see win because to hell with those bitches!!!

But on the other hand, that’s not PG so… Yeah, you’re probably right, actually, they probably would do it backwards and bring them in as a heroic babyface off the bat and totally screw it up.

Brian asks about what sets Undertaker apart.

I think an underrated aspect of the Undertaker’s character is the fact that he isn’t just an undertaker, he’s an Old West, cowboy-style undertaker. Can you describe how this element of his persona has helped him stand out from other supernatural-type characters?

I suppose, if one is of the belief that American wrestling fans are self-centered in terms of culture, Taker having a Wild West theme to his supernatural elements would help because it’s more familiar in terms of origins, but really? I don’t think him being an old west undertaker is such a major part of the gimmick. It’s there, yes, and obviously changing it would change the gimmick, but it would change the window dressing.

It’s hard to sit here and fiddle with classic, long lasting, iconic gimmicks, because you can easily fall into the trap of assuming that because it worked, that it has to have been like that to work. Mankind had to have that mask, you remove the mask, you totally change the gimmick! You can’t remove the Wild West element to Taker or else he’s not Taker any more!

And yet… I think if Taker had gone more in on the zombie aspect, the general gimmick would have been the same, he’d look different but that would be it. Taker got that act, and that act didn’t rely on a wild west motif to succeed.

Disagree? Agree? Just want to yell about the election? Do it all below, and I’ll be back next week. No idea what day, we’ll just have to wait and see…