Ask 411 Wrestling: What If Undertaker Had Jumped to WCW?

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The Trivia Crown

Who am I? Unlike Honky Tonk, my IC title reign didn’t get into a double figure amount of weeks. My last appearance in the company that gave me my first big break was in 2000 in the audience of the Blue Show and confronting a former MMA guy. My final appearance in WWE, on the other hand, was on an obscure PPV. (Well, as obscure as WWE PPV can be, unless you collect WWE moments involving… women…) My final major wrestling appearance overall was on a TNA PPV pre-show. A guy who took on and defeated such names as Steve Austin, Steve Regal, Steve Lex Luger, and DDP, I am who?

Rogue has the answer.

Who am I? Unlike Honky Tonk, my IC title reign didn’t get into a double figure amount of weeks. (Won a tournament and lost 4 weeks later to HHH) My last appearance in the company that gave me my first big break was in 2000 in the audience of the Blue Show and confronting a former MMA guy.(Appeared on Thunder and confronted Tank Abbott) My final appearance in WWE, on the other hand, was on an obscure PPV. (Well, as obscure as WWE PPV can be, unless you collect WWE moments involving… women…) ( appeared at UK PPV Capital Carnage in a mixed Tag with Jacqueline who had her top ripped off) My final major wrestling appearance overall was on a TNA PPV pre-show. (2005 Final Resolution )
A guy who took on and defeated such names as Steve Austin (IC tournament) , Steve Regal (won WCW TV Title), Lex Luger (won WCW TV title), and DDP (TV tile and feuded over Kimberly’s services) I am who? Johnny B Badd / Marc Mero

Who am I? I was involved in the last match on TV of someone from last week who the author thought should have a talk show segment. If it wasn’t for The Undertaker, all my tag title reigns would follow a pattern. Heck, if it wasn’t for Heyman’s baby, you could say the same for another type of title. I had theme music that was someone else’s for one night. I’ve represented the USA, while also changed brands via t-shirt rippage. A guy who has a record we’ve established in this very column, I am who?

Getting Down To All The Business

Curcio starts us off with a reasonable sounding question.

I have a question regarding the Matt Hardy Broken gimmick and that TNA is withholding the rights to it and not permitting Hardy to use the gimmick in WWE. What about if Hardy did a SIMILAR gimmick and named it ‘Destroyed’ or some other name similar to broken and acted in a similar manner BUT not exactly identical to the Broken character. I wasn’t sure if the hangup was the name “Broken” OR the name and the mannerisms, and everything that the character does.

It’s complicated. Moreso than usual.

Before wrestling went full corporate, wrestlers would routinely take gimmicks from elsewhere and rework them, either perfecting a gimmick they got elsewhere or just flat out ripping off another person’s gimmick. It was part of the deal, you would move from territory to territory and you’d get to keep the name/gimmick, usually.

Then wrestling started to get bigger and more integrated into mass media, and thus began ownership of gimmicks and such, which has gone through ebbs and flows depending mostly on Vince McMahon’s whims. Some days he’s ok with guys using their own names, next day he’s coming down hard on Billy Kidman and The Dudleys and so forth.

And then you have this issue, which has both sides lawyering up, so the usual confusion is both simplified and magnified, in that the question of what would and wouldn’t constitute being part of the Broken gimmick may well be answered in the courts, but until that point, WWE will not be going anywhere near it, because they do not want to get involved.
Had the Hardys split completely amicably with Impact, and Impact owned the rights to the Broken gimmick, then yes, WWE could probably work out a way around it, with the Reborn Matt Hardy, no mention of deities and such, but the same general aesthetic and such, you can write around it, sure. But because lawyers are involved, no chance. WWE will keep them as the Hardy Boyz (with Matt tossing in the barest mentions here and there, since Impact can’t sue over the crowd saying “Delete!”) until either Matt wins, and thus WWE can then go into full Broken mode, or Matt loses, and WWE can try and work around it, or toss money at Impact, or just drop the whole thing.

But yes, although trademarks for the names and the terms are part of it, the overall idea and concept is tied up in it. If WWE tried a Broken-esque gimmick, Impact would drag them into the lawsuit. Probably.

I should probably ask Leonard French about it, I guess.

From one guy in WWE to a guy on the outside, with Ben

What do you think of Kenny Omega? And how might he fare in the “BIG EEEEEEEEE”……

Hey, what him and 1/3 of the New Day do in the privacy of their own homes is their business, not my place to judge.

‘Indy Darling Wrestlers’, while not being an agreed upon term/grouping, is something we can probably all draw up lists for and see the same names cropping up. In the current scene, guys like the Young Bucks, Ricochet, Joey Ryan, Omega and so on, they’d be the ones you’d think of. Yes, New Japan and Lucha and ROH and so on are all doing well enough, but people outside WWE who lots of people like, they exist, and most of the time, people want to see them in WWE, regardless of the wrestler’s opinion on the company. But when it comes to the transition, there are two ways to make it successfully, at least in the current timeframe.

If you’re basically a wrestler who wrestles, you can make the transition somewhat easily, you just turn down the workrate a little and up the gimmicky/charisma aspect. Guys like Kevin Owens, Styles, Daniel Bryan eventually, Cesaro, sort of, they did that.

Or, if your gimmick/style is totally different to WWE, then you have to be really talented and be able to reinvent yourself. Sami Zayn would be the poster child there.

The point I’m getting at here in a very roundabout way, is that Omega is very talented and is great in the role/position he’s in. But I don’t see WWE really being able to adapt to it, he’d need to re-work himself a bit to fit. I’m sure he could do it, but it’s starting a little behind the 8-Ball. Yes, he worked for DSW a bit earlier on, so he’s had some exposure to WWE style, but at the end of the day, Omega seems very happy where he is, and I think where he is is the best place for him right now.

I’m not sure if I’d be throwing out 6 star ratings, but he’s a hell a talent, sure. Omega in WWE… He’s probably able to handle the transition, but one would be needed.

While a bunch of readers swear at me, let’s move onto Chris and his question about illegal moves.

Always been curious, and in your opinion, why is it that a move that occurs in a normal match, but is counted as a possible disqualification, can be used as a finisher with no reprocuccions . I am specifically referencing the closed fist punch. It is used by Big Show and Reigns. I remember a match years ago with involved the Dudley boyz and Flair was the guest referee, but immediately dq’d them for using a closed fist. Why as a finisher is it allowed, but in the course of a normal match, it can cause you to lose. And, do you have any other examples that come to mind.

When it comes to the closed fist, that’s easy to explain, WWE changed the rules in 2008. A closed fist is now as legal as a wristlock. So when Big Show and Reigns now do it, it’s legal. August 2008 is roughly when the rule changed, refs now only warn wrestlers and execute a 5 count when a wrestler is punching in the corner or in a mount position on the ground.

Which is not to say people do it all the time, the fact that this question still gets raised is proof that WWE isn’t having punchouts in every match. After all, part of the reason the rule was put in place back in the day, beyond the kayfabe of keeping things above board, was that if you through enough worked punches and no damage is left, people realise you’re pulling them, and so stop reacting. That hasn’t changed, so most people don’t throw too many hambones.

But back in the day, you had Ronnie Garvin’s Hands of Stone and such, why was that allowed, for instance? The immortal catchcry of ‘referee’s discretion’. A spot you used to see was after a match full of the heel cheating and pissing off the face, the face would have enough and just slog the heel a fist to the jaw. The ref would then consider DQing the face, but he’d plead his case, and then the heel would cheat and you’d continue on with the match. Basically illegal moves in wrestling are always at the discretion of the referee. If over the top rope is a DQ, and wrestlers tumble over the top rope because of momentum from a move, the ref can wave it off, say it was impossible to avoid and so on.

So a finisher that is ‘illegal’ like a punch, the ref has discretion not to immediately DQ a guy for it. And if it’s the last move of the match, a ref is unlikely to want to DQ a guy who has obviously won. So they’ll admonish them, then count the fall. Assuming they saw the punch.

But yeah, referee discretion is the get out of jail free card in that situation, but WWE doesn’t need it for punches, as they changed the rules almost a decade ago.

Moves in the same boat? The Tazzmission was always very close to a choke, for my liking, but beyond that, nothing springs to mind. Readers?

Speaking of the past and topics I feel like we’ve brushed upon, Sam?

Thanks for the highlight of my week in your column! After years of reading, a question occurred to me… If Mark Calaway had jumped to WCW in the late 90s/early 2000s, but WWF retained the rights to the Undertaker as I imagine they would have, how do you think Calaway would have been portrayed in WCW? Would we have gotten BikerTaker? Just plain Mark Calaway? A Taker rip-off called The Dead Man or somesuch? Something else?

Nash a couple years ago in an interview with himself, Scott Hall and Sean Waltman for Sports Illustrated actually claimed that Taker was about to jump ship in 2000 when he was a ‘free agent’, when he wasn’t happy with the direction of his character. Thus, Nash claims, he went from Prince of Darkness to Bikertaker, with that meant to be the precursor to his transition to Mark Calaway in WCW. Bikertaker is pretty much him in real life, after all.

I would assume that’s what would have happened at any point from 99 onwards, maybe he’d go by Mean Mark Callous like he was the last time he was in WCW, but he’d be just Bikertaker under a new name.

Now, jumping prior to Bikertaker’s debut though… It would probably end up with the same result, Mark Calaway/Callous, Bike Enthusiast in WCW. But it would be a much bigger switch in terms of gimmick, if he’s spent several years as The Undertaker… I mean, we might well have adjusted, and the notion that the Undertaker character would be this sacrosanct thing would be laughable if he jumped in and out of the gimmick a couple times in his career… But I don’t see him doing a rip-off version, he’d drop the whole thing and be a down to earth version of himself, pretty much. Which would really make the Kane backstory much more complicated…

Adrian from Ireland asks about WCW, ripping them off and jumping from them.

With the Cruiserweight scene Neville appears to be running out of opponents, do you think he could do the old Jericho WCW gimmick and start calling out Brock ? it doesn’t have to play out scene for scene the Jericho-Goldberg angle but with a few tweaks it could work. This angle was gold in WCW in my opinion.

In a world where WWE would be willing to entertain the prospect of Neville/Brock as anything other than Brock suplexing Neville so hard he literally breaks orbit, sure. If WWE was interested in telling a different story than the usual, with a guy who’s just as mean as Brock but much smaller, so Brock takes him lightly until suddenly he’s eating Red Arrows and Rings of Saturns and has to actually work at a result, at which point Neville goes into a higher gear and we get a unique big guy/little guy match… Sure, that could be a very interesting storyline. But WWE isn’t going to do that, so I don’t want to see Neville and Brock interact, as it would be one suplex and Neville is dead, and that doesn’t help anyone.

Besides, Goldberg/Jericho was going to end on Nitro before Jericho said no, and Brock doesn’t wrestle on Raw, so…

We all know Ric Flair asked to leave WWF in 92 to go back to WCW, but was there any rumor of him jumping back during the period 92 – 01 ? I know WWF was entering the new generation then and of course attitude era, but he could have been a good hand to have around or even a manager, and he said on the Monday night wars DVD that he was so happy when WCW closed down. Why didn’t he try and jump ship sooner ? he even got into legal problems with WCW around 1998 over no showing an event to attend one of Reid’s wrestling shows.

So it turns out Ric Flair was literally minutes away from appearing on WWF PPV in 1998.

For those not able to click on the video, at the time when Flair was in the middle of a lawsuit with WCW over no-showing an episode of Thunder that he’d put in notice for weeks before, WWF had a plan to stick it to WCW. Unforgiven 98 was in Greensboro, NC, and the idea was that Ric and his son Reid would sit at ringside, and then the commentators would at some point discuss the “tremendous wrestler named Flair, who had recently won championships” at ringside… Then focus on Reid, and not mention the fact that Ric Flair was sitting next to him. This would then establish Flair’s existence, and once he was out of the contract dispute with WCW, he’d come into the WWF and immediately work with Austin on top for all the money. Certainly that’s what I’ve heard, that WWF was more than willing to bring Flair in, although not all of the WWF was on board with the plan. Supposedly one Hunter Hearst Helmsley thought Flair was too old and shouldn’t be brought in.

But yes, in the height of the Flair/Bischoff war, Flair almost jumped ship. Beyond that, he just had too much loyalty to his friends and to the company, regardless of who was in charge, so beyond that moment, there wasn’t really a point between his return in 92 to the death of the company in 01. He probably should have jumped ship, but that’s beside the point. WWF would have brought him in as a top top guy, since everyone respected him, everyone would have loved to work him, made money with him, and Flair, even in late 1990s, was still one of the best workers around.

Speaking of the 90’s, Jeremy has a simple enough question.

Did any wrestlers ever appear in the “Got Milk?” ads?

Ah yes, the “Got Milk?” ads that Michael Bay got some drops from before he rose to the The Rock and now he got the socks made of silk money. Anyway, I know off the top of my head Steve Austin and The Rock did it, with Rock also doing later, non-moustache related ads for Milk.

But let me look through the list…

They’re the only two who you’d call Wrestlers. If you include people who have, at one or more points, had a match or been involved in wrestling, you can add Dennis Rodman, Muhammad Ali and Freddie Prinze Jr.

Mojotheclown, whom I’m not sure if you should pray for or not sleep since he’ll eat you, asks about NJPW and triple threat matches.

Over the last few years I’ve become massively invested in NJPW, thanks mostly to the great coverage it receives on this site.

I wanted to ask about the main event scene, and in particular triple threat matches, seeing as NJPW stays away from these as much as possible – firstly why is this, and secondly could you see a triple threat match for the IWGP belt happening at any time? (the fantasy booker in me would love to see Naito win Block A of the G1, Omega win Block 2, and them having a time limit draw to set one up vs Okada)

NJPW just doesn’t do gimmick matches all that much, since in Japan you tend to either be serious, and thus only use gimmick matches very rarely, or you be slightly less serious, and feature blow up dolls, matches pause for friendship montages, and Joey Ryan’s penis.

They do have them occasionally, but NJ just tends to stick to straight one on one contests because that’s what they do, plus it makes the Bullet Club stand out so much more when they cheat/be bastards. Japanese wrestling is still steeped in the traditions of treating it like a sport, and triple threat football matches aren’t a thing, so why have a wrestling match like that all the time?

But sure, like any gimmick match, I can see NJ organically getting to a point where it’s justified, any gimmick you can think of exists because there’s a rational storyline purpose for it, cages stop interference, lumberjacks stop people avoiding conflict, strap matches stop people running, ironman matches stop fluke victories, so on and so forth. Having two men with equal claim to a title shot, and Okada taking them both because he’s hardcore, sure, I can see that. I don’t think it’s likely in the near future, but if Okada does a few ROH spot shows or some such, I bet one of those would be a three way…

Joesph asks about being under the mask.

A bit of a leadup here. I’m a big fan of comics and superhero stories. The TV show The Flash had a storyline all this season about the identity of a mysterious antagonist. They’ve sort of had similar storylines in the previous two seasons (a mysterious “evil speedster” menaces the flash, and–to varying degrees–the identity of this adversary has been a mystery). Arrow is doing a similar storyline this season (admittedly I’m a bit behind, but a mysterious assailant stalks the hero, and they are trying to find out his identity). Legion on FX has elements of the X-Men comics in it, and–again–the identity of a certain villain was hidden throughout the season. . . .

Here’s my question: what do you think some great unmaskings are, and do you think it’s even possible in wrestling to do a true genuine “Who is this mysterious masked individual”? angle in professional wrestling? Due to the restrictions of the medium is it possible? Was it ever possible?

I’m separating this from “mystery partners”. “Who is the Third Man?” is not an issue of a masked character.

Rude in WCW and ECW, as well as DDP in WWF, regardless of how the angles ended up going (in order, really really well, ok, and DEAR GOD NO), were all spectacular unmaskings, you do the angle. All you need is someone that the audience will recognize when the mask is pulled off, but they aren’t expecting under the mask. Now, in the old days that was a lot easier, when the internet was just a gleam in Al Gore’s eye, there was less likelihood that the identity of a masked man would be widely known before the reveal. These days, we know the name of every random schlub on Raw, a guy under a mask long term is going to be found out pretty quickly. A one night deal, like Miz as the Calgary Kid, that’s doable, but long term…

Anyone who is talented enough to disguise their wrestling style and mannerisms long term, is going to be noticed missing, or showing up at the events. If you keep someone out of the ring, and maybe only in promos and stuff… Maybe you can still get away with it, but it is a lot harder to do. You tend to have to unmask the same night you reveal yourself, either be masked for a day, or not turn up until the last moment. Just too hard to keep a secret in the modern age.

How important is “mystery” to wrestling, specifically to buildups in angles?

In many respects, mystery IS wrestling. The old notion of wrestling at its purest form is two guys who don’t like each other, and a place to settle it. But what sells that is the question of who is going to win? Every wrestling match, in theory, is based around not knowing who is going to win, and thus needing to see the match to find out.

However, in terms of angles and building up to the matches themselves, mystery is like weapons, or blood, or shoot aspects, or skin, or anything, it can be used well to enhance an angle, or be the basis of it, but it doesn’t always work, isn’t always needed, and if done badly can make things worse.

I mean, people like a mystery, and certainly a good mystery can help draw in attention, and lead to speculation and discussion, but at the end of it, you need a payoff, and one that is totally logical, or else really unexpected and cool. Those are harder than you think. Especially if you’re the sort to swerve the internet just because, and have the obvious heel turn in Christian turn into Matt Hardy because people had worked it out and were looking forward to it.

Supposedly.

You can run a company’s storylines with no mysteries beyond match results, it’s entirely possible to make a compelling angle out of two forces eventually meeting with a certainly inevitability. But mystery can make it better, make it hotter, but you need the payoff. A flat payoff in any other medium you can rework. But in wrestling, it can often be a death blow for an angle and a career if you’re not careful.

Speaking of bad things, Paul?

I’m a glutton for punishment and I’m going through some old WCW ppvs to watch how bad it had gotten(I had bailed by then). Any suggestions for the worst of the worst?

Well, The Great American Bash 91 is the obvious classic choice for a horrible PPV, the infamous WE WANT FLAIR PPV. The modern equivalent would be the New Blood Rising PPV from 2000, with the Storm/Awesome ripoff of Austin/Dude, Judy Bagwell on a pole, a miscarriage angle, The Great Muta jobbing to The Cat, and the Worked Shoot mess of the main event.

Some shows are known for one match, stuff like Uncensored 96 with Savage and Hogan beating the entire world in the Doomsday Cage, Slamboree 2000 has David Arquette turning heel, and Halloween Havoc 98 has Warrior/Hogan (but also DDP/Goldberg).

Souled Out 97 was different, and it didn’t really work, so there’s that too. Readers? Which ones am I missing? And which WWE ones also suck?

Dan finishes this week with Warrior’s original plans.

In 1991, the Ultimate Warrior was fired by Vince McMahon at SummerSlam and didn’t reappear until WrestleMania VIII the following year. If Warrior hadn’t pulled his stunt at SS, where was the WWF going with the Warrior? I know he was feuding with Jake Roberts but was there any plan to have him face Hogan at WMVIII the following year?

Maybe, the problem is that Wrestlemania 8 went through a bunch of changes with every arrival and leaving, so it’s hard to tell where it would have ended up if one or another thing as changed.

Short term, the idea was Warrior/Roberts, with Taker there to run tag matches with someone else on some shows, maybe. (Sid?) Possibly that might have run all the way to WM, or to the Rumble, or maybe just to Survivor Series. Hard to tell.

After that, I guess Taker? Sid and Flair both coming in, they each had consideration for the main event, and while Warrior sticking around would make the obvious Hogan/Warrior 2 with Warrior heel idea a go, the issue was that Hogan was leaving for a while, plus the steroid issue was looming, so what’s the title match there then, since Hogan can’t win it. Flair/Savage only came about because Savage was back in the ring because Warrior left, maybe he’d come back anyway but…

It’s just a giant mess, the plans kept changing due to Vince’s mood, and the steroid trials, and the fans not caring about Flair the more he’s on TV without Big Gold… Trying to piece together what Warrior would have done is hard. But considering what else happened, he’d probably either be retiring Roberts, or beating Taker. And thus, no streak.

And on that note, I bid you good day. See you next week! Probably!