Ask 411 Wrestling: Who’s The Greatest Money Maker In Wrestling History?

Hey R-Truth, what column is this?

What’s Up! This here is Ask 411 Wrestling, Dog!

… Cheers.

Anyway, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling. I’m your host, Mathew Sforcina, and I’m writing this just after the Royal Rumble but before Raw, so I’m still dealing with the Bloody Obvious happening, but if there’s some shocking thing that occurred on Raw, just pretend that I’m discussing it here.

…

OK, moving on. Got a question that is troubling you on a deep emotional level, something you’ve been struggling with and you need an understanding, morally centered friend to rely on?

Well, go ask someone else.

But if you’ve got a silly question about pro wrestling, [email protected] is waiting for your message!

BANNER!

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! I did a follow up to last year’s Rumble list!

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Corporate Daniel Bryan: Rereading that, I realised I missed a point I should have made at the start: That wasn’t so much what I’d do, but more what I think WWE would do given the circumstances. Obviously it didn’t happen, but the thing is, right now, if a miracle occurs and Daniel is cleared between now and WM, he’ll either be held off to the night after WM, or he comes back at WM and turns heel because WWE is all in on Reigns.

It was just thinking out loud, obviously it didn’t happen (although I so called the Kofi Rumble Spot), but I’ve never liked the style of fantasy booking wherein the impossible happens, like Punk comes back or WWE radically alters their style or suddenly doesn’t suck. But hey, it didn’t happen so no harm, no foul.

Kurt Angle in ECW: He wasn’t made, sure, but ECW was the first company to try and use him in some fashion. I’ll admit that it’s a stretch, but his debut in pro wrestling, albeit untelevised, was in ECW. So I can see a stickler wanting to claim it, but yeah, I’d say he was WWF built. Hence I included him.

WWE Creating Stars: All right, I can see the argument that I was perhaps too strict in my definition of what making a star constitutes. The thing is though, where do you draw the line with that? Sure, Triple H was a curtain jerker in WCW and WWE totally made him. But Austin was a multi time US and tag champ in WCW before he went to WWE and became a Superstar, he wasn’t a nobody. Taker was somewhat unknown until he was Taker, but he was someone. I just have a hard time moving the needle as to what constitutes WWE making a star down to a level where Ric Flair might count.

WWE had the benefit up to when they became a virtual monopoly of a bunch of companies that would help shape wrestlers, whom WWE would then take and put the shine on to make into superstars. They get credit for that, sure, I’m not sure that’s a full credit in ‘making them’. Fine tuning a car is not the same thing as building it from the ground up.

They get full credit in utilization and in perfecting guys, but I don’t consider that ‘making’ them. But that doesn’t stop you having a different stance, certainly. Just as long as you’re clear about your definition, and vice versa.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I’m connected via a title to someone in the above PPV. I’ve been managed by Hall of Famers and world champions. One of my first theme songs is one you’d think Hogan would have used at some point, but he hasn’t. My last televised major league match was a win, although someone tossed a wrench into my plans. I never won a Royal Rumble, but I won something vaguely similar once. I never competed in a Hell in a Cell match, although I did once lose in a vaguely similar match type. I once shared a specific honor with Hogan, Sting and Savage despite not really being eligible to appear with them, since I never appeared on it. A guy who’s kicked out of a deadly move at one, and a guy you really should keep an eye on, I am who?

Keith Freakin’ Sikora has it mostly.

Who am I? I’m connected via a title to someone in the above PPV (WCW U.S. title, with Konnan). I’ve been managed by Hall of Famers and world champions (Paul Bearer, Ric Flair, Harley Race). One of my first theme songs is one you’d think Hogan would have used at some point, but he hasn’t (Springsteen’s “Born in the USA”). My last televised major league match was a win, although someone tossed a wrench into my plans (Beat Bram via DQ after Bram used a wrench, TNA 6/24/2015). I never won a Royal Rumble, but I won something vaguely similar once (BattleBowl 1993). I never competed in a Hell in a Cell match, although I did once lose in a vaguely similar match type (Thundercage, against Flair). I once shared a specific honor with Hogan, Sting and Savage despite not really being eligible to appear with them, since I never appeared on it (title video for the debut edition of Nitro, but he never appeared on any episode of Nitro). A guy who’s kicked out of a deadly move at one (Hogan’s legdrop), and a guy you really should keep an eye on (Stan Hansen poked his eye out), I am who? [BIG VAN] VADER

The title connection was he was GHC Tag Champs with 2 Cold Scorpio one time.

Who am I? I count in one of the records listed in the Royal Rumble by the numbers video even when technically, I shouldn’t. A Slammy winner, I was once replaced by a joke teller in a tournament, while I’ve replaced a guy who famously got his leg pulled too hard at one point. I’ve wrestled under a name in both normal and Junior versions. I’ve been attacked by cameras, while a title change I was involved with occurred without cameras being present. I once helped a relative beat Undertaker in his own match, I missed a fairly major angle due to injury, and a cat once got my tongue, in kayfabe at least. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

Skinnerheenan starts us off with a few questions that are unrelated to each other.

Mathew, I have a few questions. First off, thanks for what you do. I look forward to your columns every week. You’re a stud. Accolades aside, I am curious about who the true biggest money maker of all time is. How would you quantify it? Cena’s been on top for over a decade, more so than Austin or perhaps Hogan. Would you compare the peak years of each wrestler and base it on that?

Well comparing money and drawing power is always an issue due to inflation and a whole bunch of factors. And since Prag’s no longer around to ask, I’m stuck relying on other people. To whit, back in 2009, Meltzer put together a list of the top draws in WWE history based on gates/ratings, and the top ten for that was:

1. Bruno Sammartino
2. Hulk Hogan
3. Bob Backlund
4. Argentina Rocca
5. HHH
6. Undertaker
7. Steve Austin (Undertaker and HHH have passed him in recent years since he finished his career in 2003. Had he not retired at the age of 38 due to injuries, as well as missed what probably would have been his biggest drawing year in 1999 with neck surgery, he would have been No. 2 on this list by now. Nobody ever in company history was a bigger drawing card or merchandise seller then he was at his peak.)
8. The Rock
9. Pedro Morales
10. Shawn Michaels

But in terms of the top ten draws of all time, the list for that in 2012 was:

Jim Londos
Bruno Sammartino
Lou Thesz
Wild Bill Longson
Hulk Hogan
Ed ‘Strangler’ Lewis
Argentina Rocca
Ric Flair
Buddy Rogers
Joe Stecher

But draw =/= money maker, although if you want more info on draws throughout history, check out the full list of decades Meltzer put together in 2012.

Overall, according to Jericho on his podcast, Cena recently passed Austin as all time merch seller, which makes sense, but Austin still holds the record for one year’s sales, in 98 he made $13 million from merch alone. But in terms of who’s made the most money in wrestling overall, Austin had the strongest run but Cena’s the current overall record holder. Not sure if that’s with inflation or not.

But yeah, overall it’s Cena with Austin a close second. Unless someone else has hard data.

Another thing. I’ve noticed this primarily in the WWE. Several moves that were used a lot in the 80s and 90s are seemingly obsolete now, or in Sandow’s case with the side russian leg sweep, or HHH’s spinebuster, not used as much anymore: the atomic drop, poke in the eye, back rake, abdominal stretch, spinning wheel kick, regular body slam, tests of strengths, back body drop, etc. Thoughts? Seems like it’s just another evolution in this business.

Pretty much, although I’m sure someone will be able to find instances of the moves being used recently if they insist. But wrestling is this weird mix of several types of performance and entertainment, and like music and such, there are trends and fashions. Whenever someone comes up with a cool new move, people will rip it off and use it themselves. If someone comes up with a good chain of moves in a row, people will alter it a little, maybe, and steal it. And certain moves become popular and everyone does them for a while. How many suicide dives did you see at the Rumble?

Simple, basic moves tend to fall by the wayside as fancy moves, at first, get a bigger reaction. Why bodyslam a guy when an Emerald Frosion gets a bigger pop? Of course, the problem is that soon no-one pops for the Frosion, nor the bodyslam, not until you rebuild both of them, but wrestlers don’t think long term like that, they want a reaction now, and if they can do a cool move, they’ll do it.

Most of the moves you listed are simple moves, and most wrestlers today would prefer to be more advanced and cool with their moves. But hey, any move can be built as a finisher, and so many one day soon a back rake will be a killer…

Another random thing: when did referees stop patting down wrestlers for foreign objects?

They did? I got patted down just last Saturday. But enough about my massage ‘therapy’.

Anyway, I presume refs in WWE stopped that at around the time of the PG switch, given that since wrestlers aren’t about to pull out weapons and use them since any weapon that small would be a legitimate one (brass knuckles, chain, roll of quarters) and thus not be acceptable for a PG fight. That’s just a guess, like a lot of what WWE does, there’s not any obvious logic to the change, and thus you’re left with just ‘They wanted to change it for reasons’.

Or maybe they thought it looks gay or something maybe.

*3/4 of a Chandler*

Evil Jeff has a simple enough question that allows me to post an old Botchamania! Yay!

just a quick question about one of the more ‘famous’ Botchamania scenes:
During the Dusty Rhodes “HE GOT A BICYCLE!” commentary quote where there is nWo-B-Team’s Bubba Rogers fighting Rey Misterio jr in (presumably) a no DQ match, who is the guy with Bubba in the nWo shirt and the ski mask?

Or, if you just want the match itself…

But for starters, that’s not Mysterio, that’s Mr. JL, a mysterious masked man who wrestled in WCW from 95 through to 97, and whose identity was Jerry Lynn under a silly mask is lost to the mists of time.

Likewise, the other masked man is something of a mystery. See, the original hook of the nWo angle was that the nWo members weren’t WCW wrestlers, and thus weren’t able/willing to wrestle on WCW shows unless it suited them. So sometimes they’d have nWo Saturday Night and the like, and then in late 96/early 97, they had their own nWo referee, who’d wear the shirt and the mask to hide the fact it was clearly Nick Patrick their identity from the world. This match was filmed on December 19th, 1996 for broadcast on the 4th of January 1997 edition of WCW Saturday Night. Sadly nothing in the recap of the show explains the presence of the infamous bicycle.

But yeah, that’s the original nWo ref, before they came right out and admitted it was Nick Patrick.

Mitch wants to talk about the Rumbles, was a smidge late on the draw last week, so it’s either do it now or wait a year, so…

Been reading for ages, but never asked anything so here it goes. It’s kind of two parts.

Obviously it’s Royal Rumble season and this year is a big one with the World Title on the line so lets hope for the best. My pick is Brock.

Sorry dude.

However the past 5 Rumbles have been let downs. Edge winning in 2010 is the last truly decent one and I loved them. 2011 saw the 40-man with Del Rio predictably winning a bland match with few highlights, 2012 was worse IMO as the year before we at least saw exciting returns, I only remember the finish with Y2J & Sheamus. Cenawinslol in 2013 castrating Ryback, leading to OIALT II. This is where it got really yawn then we have the 14/15 jobber Rumble fiascos with the Batista/Roman/Bryan problem. Bad booking, predictable, unmemorable matches and terrible finishes makes me reluctant to watch this year.

One: How do WWE mess it up so badly? We all could book it better!

Pat Patterson stopped booking them for starters, that was a big issue with the decrease in quality.

But each one had its own issues. 11 was an experiment since they had all these stables they wanted to include, but they didn’t want to dilute the match by having a Raw and a SD one, which was the original idea. But 40 guys was too many when they had so many bland characters to stick in there. 12 was the predictability issue, everyone was looking forward to Troll Jericho winning without having to do much, but WWE swerved that because they don’t like people spotting their booking too much (unless it involves Triple H winning the big one, for some reason…)

*1/10 of a Chandler*

13 was stuck building to the match they had to do, plus it not going on last hurt it I think. 14 might well have been better received if Batista’s return was the surprise they intended it to be, but still it was a case of people wanting Bryan and not getting him, which is of course doubled down on in 15, when they honestly thought people would forget Bryan.

But the same issues keep popping up, where guys can only be eliminated by wrestlers above a certain level, where people come in for their one shot storyline then tossed, too much deadwood, and not enough long term storytelling. The matches are put together too mechanically. There’s no attempt at flow or overall storytelling, it’s just a bunch of little scenes stuck together. But that’s just my view, I’m sure lots of people below will be happy to say why they hate the most recent Rumbles.

Two: What would you do to make it better? ANYTHING extreme or realistic to make it more enjoyable. Whether its the numbers, qualifying, eliminations, booking, surprises, match length, rules, winners and so on. I’m asking you to reinvent the Rumble.

You don’t need to reinvent it, you just need to approach it like you’re making a garden path rather than a simcity map.

I mean, you could start to fiddle with stipulations, if you want. Time all the qualifying matches (well step one, have qualifying matches obviously), where the quickest victory gets the #30 spot, say, and the top 9 other times get 21-29 in a special random draw, thus making every match important and exciting as now every wrestler has a goal of winning ASAP, plus ensuring that any legends and such who aren’t winning will be early. Maybe the Iron Man and the most eliminations wrestle on the Raw after the show and the winner of the match gets a choice of either fighting for the title or the #1 contendership at Fast Lane, say, have there be stakes beyond the big one to tell more stories, like after a certain point long lasting guys move into survival mode, less concerned with winning than just surviving.

But those are just ideas for add ons, but the main one is in building the match better. There should be a main story and a couple of minor ones, a surprise entry or two, a surprise elimination or two, a couple memorable spots and overall you need to build the match to flow.

This year’s one wasn’t too bad actually, considering. It wasn’t 92 or 04 or anything (04 was arguably the best booked Rumble, whereas 92 was just the best overall) but it was a step up, and it had most of the above, it just lacked star power and the main players were not over and the storyline was blatant.

Although not tossing Reigns back into the ring after the Rusev splash was silly. Have Reigns picked up by someone, he saves himself with a desperation punch and then he can collapse and get taken away if he has to be, although honestly 99 Vince was not the way to go, he should have been in there fighting all damn match. And if he can’t work that long, then why the hell do you book it?

So yeah, hopefully this is a corner turning, and we get some good Rumbles from now on. And/or they back the cash truck to Patterson’s door and get him booking them again, that would be good. What do you guys think?

Ryan has a couple questions.

I’ve been watching the old weekly NWA-TNA PPV’s, and one common annoyance in X Division matches is the constant “routine” of pinning combinations and sweeping the opponent’s legs with the arms, miss the elbow, kip up, bla bla. They did it every show and it felt like in every match on the same night if X division was involved more than once. The question at the end of this would be, do wrestlers watch the matches, and take note not to do something if a spot like that is done already? It feels insulting to fans to rinse and repeat this same sequence every week, and sometimes more than once a night (Kid Kash sticks out as a main culprit).

Ah, the Sound and Fury. That’s not the actual title for it, but just what I do to refer to the cruiser/indy sequence you’re referring to. So called because it signifying nothing.

Anyway, while wrestlers do tend to check with each other on a show to make sure big spots and/or storylines aren’t copied (and on TV, the agents are supposed to do that), minor moves aren’t covered by that, or else you’d be there all day running down lists a mile long. Ideally wrestlers wouldn’t copy stuff like that, but the problem is a lot of guys love that sort of spot at the start, it’s what they know, and they’ll do it even if every match does it.

There’s some logic there, in that it’s meant to be going for quick falls and thus finish the match quickly, but it’s basically just something that quick tech/flip guys do all the time. But I agree it’s overused.

Second question is regarding old school spot calling… or lack thereof. I know there was less complicated moves being used, so less explaining to do, but watching some old matches you don’t really see a lot going on in terms of calling what’s next, or they’re really good at hiding it. Was there more or less a learned instinct of what move you’re about to take based on how you’re grabbed, or was there indeed a lot of chatter but better hidden?

A little from columns A through G there.

The moves were a little less complicated, sequences were slower and more deliberate and thus less info needed to be imparted, there was more information transferred via touch and motion, but overall the main reason spot calling isn’t as noticeable is that the cameras weren’t nearly as close and the ring wasn’t nearly as well set up with microphones.

Not to say that a Paige or a Cena wouldn’t be noticeable if they were calling spots like that in the old days, but with HD cameras zooming in closer and mics everywhere, that sort of thing gets picked up a lot clearer and a lot more obviously than it used to be. Overall spot calling hasn’t gone up that much, it’s just more wrestling that is more clearer in it’s broadcasting means more spots get into Everybody Talks Too Much than it would have before.

I’m not sure Paul knows who I am.

Hello Mr. H.,

See?

Do you ever envision Kevin Sullivan getting picked for the WWE HOF or does perhaps his loose ties to Nancy Benoit & Chris Benoit hurt that chance? How do you feel history views his in and out of ring legacy?

As far as the WWE HOF, this isn’t a Koko situation, in that yeah, the Benoit thing might hurt his chances in terms of timing. I’m sure he’s on the list, given that he’s part of their alumni list, and he’s not said anything too bad about them, his career is long, he’s been influential on both sides of the camera, he’s on the list I’m sure. But I suspect he’s down it a bit, he probably won’t get in for a while.

As for his legacy, I think he’s slightly underrated as a booker, but his on air legacy is about right. Sullivan was always a gimmick worker, and while his gimmicks were controversial and such, he worked them well, but as a wrestler he was… all right…

I dunno, he’s not a guy anyone is selling as an awesome wrestler, and the incidents in WCW with the Radicals and such sour some people on him, but overall, I think history looks at him somewhat fairly, apart from those conspiracy nuts who refuse to believe someone as good as Benoit was at wrestling could do something so horrible.

If Randy Savage had not been taken from us so soon, would there still be a yearly clamoring for him to get into the HOF or would he inducted by now willingly? From all accounts i can find he divorced himself from the industry willingly: no legends shows, events, local shows, autograph signings, etc. He seemed to have moved on from the industry altogether.

Now, here’s the thing. I’m basing this on just one trailer.

But it’s a start. This was the last major thing Randy filmed, to my knowledge, and it was an ad for a WWE product that he was in. So maybe, just maybe, the bridge was being rebuilt. And if so, they might slowly but surely bring him back in, do a DVD set with his involvement, have him appear on an episode of Raw, bring him in for a analyst table spot, he’s be back in the company and all would be good, leading up to…

See, here’s the problem. After the Von Erichs got in, Savage decided that, if WWE wanted to induct him, they’d have to induct his father and his brother at the same time as a group lot.

Now, WWE may have agreed to that. Maybe WWE could have talked him out of it. Maybe they’d reach a compromise and induct all three of them, just separately, like Randy one year and then The Genius and his father the next year, or something like that. But Randy, at the time of his death, seemed very insistent on that. So a HOF induction may have taken a while, or it might have come a lot quicker. Either way, maybe, hopefully, he’d have been back in WWE in some form. He’d probably have slipped into Hogan’s role once Hogan’s problems all came out, which I’m sure Randy would have loved…

Egomaniac247 is worried about someone’s health.

Just watching WM 14 and the show starts off with a big tag team battle royal. The teams clear the ring to the floor to allow LOD to have some spotlight during their big return. As soon as LOD remove their shoulder pads the wrestlers on the floor all slide in under the bottom rope, the bell rings, and the match is under way. Except for one guy, Miguel Perez. If you watch closely he never enters the ring and he can be seen on the hard camera standing on the floor leaning on the apron. A referee checks on him and almost immediately his tag partner Savio Vega is on the floor as well to check on him. Eventually Savio and a ref put their arms around him and help him to the back,

Any idea what happened there?

To the tape!

… I’m not sure I should be posting that right now, but whatever.

Miguel was injured, it was reported right after the show that he was out for an unknown length of time with an unknown injury. So it doesn’t look like he gets in the ring, so either A) he got injured right before the show and thought he could make it but trying to get into the ring worsened the problem or B) he got injured right before the show and thought he could hang around for the quickie payday but in laying down he hurt the injury more, or C) he injured himself trying to get into the ring somehow.

I’d wager C, I’ve seen guys hurt themselves doing similar things, so it’s entirely possible he tried to spring up too quickly and tore a muscle or he banged something on someone trying to get in or… I dunno, I couldn’t find a Los Boricuas fan club that had records. Any LB fanboys out there?

Connor asks about flopping.

Why was Vader such a flop in the wwf? he seemed to tick every box that Vince likes in a big man

A few factors led to Vader not going as well as you’d think. For starters having coming in and then immediately needing shoulder surgery got him off on the wrong foot.

Then, when he came back, there were some issues that led to him having heat, given that apparently Vader has a superstition about washing his ring gear, and sadly it’s not that he had to wash it twice a day or anything. Guys didn’t like working with him, supposedly, because he stank. Plus he put on weight, which didn’t help matters.

Then he got fed to the Shawn Michaels ego chipper, and got his win at Summerslam politically yanked away, given that the title was meant to go Bret-Shawn-Vader-Shawn-Bret between Wrestlemania 12 and 13, given that they wanted Shawn to win the title at the Rumble, but the Summerslam title change got pushed back to Survivor Series and then Shawn got Sid put in instead.

There’s talk about how he was then going to win the title after Shawn vacated the belt, but a knee injury ruined that, but that write up insisted Austin was the original winner which wasn’t going to happen, so who knows.

But anyway, politics, heat, injuries and weight issues led to him moving to the midcard in 97, where he actually wasn’t bad (Vader was working as a face, I don’t care what anyone says), but not what he could have been, certainly. But hey, he’s still looking good, and maybe he can make up for that slip…

Brad finishes us off with a research question I’m sue I’ll mess up.

(Watching 93 Raw and seeing) the multiple Doinks got me thinking. What other gimmicks have been around where multiple people portrayed those characters and what wrestlers portrayed them?

Let’s see… Lucha/Puro characters tend to either hand down the mask (Tiger Mask 1/2/3/etc) or you get weird cases where guys are simultaneously the same guy and yet different guys (La Parka/L.A. Park, Mistico/Myzteziz) so I’ll probably be avoiding them.

Battle Kat: Brady Boone, Bob Bradley
Diesel: Kevin Nash, Glen Jacobs
Doink: Played by Matt Osborne, Steve Keirn, Steve Lombardi, John Maloof, Ray Apollo, Nick Dinsmore
Kane: Glen Jacobs, Luke Gallows
Kim Chee: Jim Dalton, Steve Lombardi
Max Moon: Konnan, Paul Diamond
Razor Ramon: Scott Hall, Rick Bognar
Sin Cara: Luis Alvirde, Jorge Arias
Suicide/Manik: Frankie Kazarian, Christopher Daniels, Kiyoshi, T.J. Perkins
The Kiss Demon: Brian Adams, Dale Torborg
The Patriot: Del Wilkes, Tom Brandi
The Undertaker: Mark Calloway, Brian Lee

Randy Orton’s Wife: Various Actresses.

I think that’s all the major American ones. Did I miss any readers? Do tell me by next week, when I’ll see you all again!