wrestling / Columns

Ask 411 Wrestling: Did Chris Jericho Have the Smartest Gimmick?

May 6, 2015 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina

Hello there, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling, and I totally kicked ass last weekend!

Sure, other stuff happened, but I’m just concerned with that awesome match I totally won single-handedly!

Anyway, let’s move past my ego and focus on what brought us all here. BANNER!

Oh, wait, wrong order. First is the email address, [email protected], and then comes BANNER!

Much better.

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! April was my most successful month so far, so here’s hoping May is even better!

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Claiming Evie: Sorry, it’s the law. Any New Zealander who becomes famous and/or popular is automatically Australian at that point, until such time as they screw up somehow, only then do they revert to being Kiwis. Sorry, Evie is ours now.

Cena Having X-Pac Heat: My issue with fitting Cena into the X-Pac heat basket is that X-Pac heat doesn’t tend to play to the typical heel spots that Cena does, or at least the spots he does where he gets heel heat. X-Pac heat tends to be more resigned and flat than the actual heat Cena has. But even if it is X-Pac heat, WWE has accepted Cena gets a mixed reaction and is cool with it, so it doesn’t matter to them. Alas.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I never did something that in wrestling almost everyone does at some point. I’ve been a lion, and the first guy to hold a specific title. I once had to forfeit a title right before it underwent a name change. (I also underwent a name change at some point). I’ve won a major league tag title twice, each time with a different partner. I have a 100% success rate in one major promotion. You can argue my last Wrestlemania was one of three, depending on how you count it. A man who got his revenge over his partner’s betrayal on a big show no-one saw on TV, I am who?

El Atomico basically has it down.

“I never did something that in wrestling almost everyone does at some point. ” –turned heel.
“I’ve been a lion–B.C. Lions of the CFL — and the first guy to hold a specific title.” 1st AWF Champion
.” I once had to forfeit a title right before it underwent a name change. (I also underwent a name change at some point” Eastern Championship Wrestling to Extreme Championship Wrestling, Tito Santana to El Matador
“I’ve won a major league tag title twice, each time with a different partner.”–WWF Tag Team with Ivan Putski and Rick Martel
“I have a 100% success rate in one major promotion.”–Beat Jeff Jarrett on Nitro in WCW
“You can argue my last Wrestlemania was one of three, depending on how you count it.”–7 was last as Tito, 8 was last as El Matador (televised) 9 was dark
“A man who got his revenge over his partner’s betrayal on a big show no-one saw on TV,”–Beat Ric Martel at a house show?
You are Tito Santana

As pointed out, he got his win over Martel in the 89 KOTR final. And for the WM thing, I counted last match, then his last commentary stint, and then his HOF induction. But all good.

Who am I? I was involved in a match on a major show that was the only one of it’s type on the whole show. My debut match in WWE was against a guy who’s arguably more well known for his run in ECW. My PPV debut was a win against a guy who’s most famous manager would have fit with me quite well. Apart from some guy named Shane, every one of my tag title reigns was with a different guy. I’ve been an authority figure, I’ve rebelled against… Myself, and I’ve been very demanding. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

William has two questions.

Do you know what the go is with the white dome things are that are now placed on top of each ring post in the standard WWE ring? I assume it is used for all weeklies, as well as PPVs. I recall seeing them at least since the beginning of the year, and they also have little holes in them facing towards the ring (about the size of a 5 cent coin ($AUD, I know you’ll be familiar) which I would guess suggest that there are cameras in them? Has this completely slipped under my radar for a long time, or is this a new thing the WWE have placed in there, perhaps for Gorilla?

Yeah, they now have cameras in the ring posts, they started from Fastlane to occasionally use the shots from the posts in recaps and highlight packages. They first used them, apparently, in the Performance Center and liked them so much they brought them up to the big leagues. So far they’ve begun to slowly experiment with them for new shots and the like.

The main problem is that the cameras are quite obviously of a lesser quality than the usual HD ones, so it can be a little jarring to go from full lovely HD to camera phone quality if you’re not expecting it.

The idea is sound, but I’d prefer a slightly better quality for the darn thing.

Is Tyson Kidd actually Moe Syzlack? The evidence is compelling. I have compiled some exhibits below. Plus I have never seen them both at the same place at the same time.

Exhibit A


Exhibit B


One of these men is a cartoon character. The other runs a bar. Totally different guys.

CLGJ asks about a promo that didn’t really go anywhere.

If this has been answered, I apologize. In the late days of WCW, macho man came out on nitro to cut a promo, and said he had a prospect/someone they should sign, he was young and would change the business. Who was it? Was it part of the storyline? I remember it coming across in a weird way and they never mentioned it again.

This would be the October 25th 1999 edition of Nitro, the night after Halloween Havoc. From the ever reliable historyofwwe.com …

… included an in-ring promo by Randy Savage, alongside Gorgeous George, in which he called Vince Russo and the others backstage vultures; Savage then issued a warning not to hunt what you can’t kill, and said what happened to Hogan and Flair could not happen to him and he wasn’t a “punk bitch” (bitch was censored); Savage said the yellow and red and Space Mountain were played out, noted his world title wins in the WWF and WCW, and said he was looking to pass the torch to someone who could go on and be even better than him; Savage then said this person would win world titles and break record ratings;

That was pretty much the last time he turned up on Nitro, and nothing came of it. I couldn’t find any record of who, if anyone, they had in mind for the role. At a guess, maybe it was his brother Lanny, a.k.a the Genius. He was under contract with WCW, after all. Certainly at the time he was looking different. (3:45ish, if I’m right).

But that’s just an educated guess. I couldn’t find any details, perhaps there were none to find, as it were. Unless a reader has an inside scoop.

AJ wants me to bust out the Google-Fu

I think a lot of people who watch WM3 think Beefcake helped Piper because he turned face earlier in the night when Valentine and Bravo turned on him. But I know just a short time before WM3 Adonis was cutting jobbers hair building up to his match vs Piper. While Adonis and Beefcake were teaming in a 6 man match Adonis accidentally cut Beefcakes hair. A face was in the heels corner and as Adonis went to grab the clippers the face reversed Beefcake into the corner and Adonis cut his hair. I can’t find a video of it anywhere. Any chance you can?

February 28, 1987 edition of WWF Superstars of Wrestling. Match starts at 36 minutesish, haircut after the 40 minutes mark.

So yeah, Google-Fu. Respect it.

From a success to a failure, thanks to Shnow writing in from Chile.

I read in a local news article that Chile was the 5th country with most WWE Network subscribers… is that true? I couldn’t confirm it…

Sadly neither could I. I wasn’t able to find any sort of breakdown of WWE Network numbers by country. Thus I can’t confirm or deny that report.

That said, it’s possible if unlikely, in that after US, Canada, and the UK, then maybe Mexico, you’re down to countries where the numbers are harder to judge. Which would have more, Norway or Australia? Finland or New Zealand?

However, I would wager that Brazil might be the actual number 5 and Chile is tacked onto that, but I can’t say for sure, due to my Google-Fu failing me.

And… How f****n’ unlikely would it be for a country like Chile to have a Live TV Raw Event?… (Yeah, you have answered similar questions in the past, but i need my dreams to be destroyed)
Saludos!

Well, you’re ok for time zones, given that there’s just an hour’s difference. But the issue is the set. WWE is dead set against having any Raw/SD look different to any other one, and since the giant set is a bitch to transport, Chile would have to throw money at WWE to get them to come out.

So yeah, I wouldn’t be holding my breath. I’m more likely to get me Wrestlemania Carnival than you are Chile Raw.

Paul has a question that’s impossible to answer properly.

I know it’s become a bit of a cliche at this point to use your opponent’s finisher on them (particularly if you’re in the main event of WrestleMania), but in light of the Rollins/Orton cage match, how many times has someone actually won by doing that?

I obviously can’t give you an exact figure. All I can do is rattle off the times I can recall it happening off the top of my head.

Yokozuna beating Hogan at KOTR for the WWF title with a leg drop.
Owen Hart beating Triple H with the Pedigree at Over The Edge 98 in a 6 man tag.
Whenever Taker beat Kane with the Tombstone, or vice-versa.
Jericho won the ‘World Championship’ from The Rock at Vengeance 2001 in the Unification thing with a Rock Bottom.
Flair’s lost to Hogan in a Figure Four at some point I’m sure.
And, of course, Shawn Michaels beating Bret with the Sharpshooter at Survivor Series 97.

Perhaps readers will have more. But yes, it’s happened a few times, with world title changes and all!

Evil Jeff asks about the guy Meng tagged with.

Why didn’t The Barbarian ever get a decent run as a main event heel? I know WCW gave him a match or two with Ron Simmons when he had the world title, but that was pretty much it.
The guy had a great look (especially when he had his head partially shaved and the facepaint on) he was a good worker and his offence looked believably violent. Not to mention some of the top-rope stuff he used to do which was pretty impressive for a guy of his size.
Was he just always in the wrong place at the wrong time to get the big push?

The matches he had in 92 that you referred to I believe are what scuttled him. He got his big break and the matches weren’t great and they didn’t draw well. Now you can debate the causes there, but at the end of the day the guy didn’t move the needle as a main event guy, but he was a solid enough hand, as you point out, so he had a midcard spot for as long as he could maintain it.

And again, although everyone should have the drive and desire to be main event, obviously not everyone can, and if you’re able to maintain your dedication while being midcard, then that’s not a bad thing. Not a good thing, sure, but it’s not bad as such. Midcard shouldn’t be seen as a missed opportunity all the time, some guys find their niche and settle there.

Jon wants us all to think a little.

Your very competent fill-in last week made a comment that got me wondering: what are the most intelligent gimmicks of all time? Not smart like “The Genius” but smart like (from last week’s column) Mohammed Hassan- a character who challenges your real life thinking and/or seems legitimately smart in real life?

Interesting question. Certainly gimmicks that cause one to re-evaluate your thinking are rare, assuming you aren’t finding yourself confronted by people who act gay/black/whatever.

A half-answer would be Samoa Joe, not so much for the gimmick itself, but more for how he wrestled, he was one of the first guys I remember who would do things logically in the ring. Why not just walk away when a guy goes for a dive on you, stuff like that.

I think while Hassan is the poster child for this concept (before the ski-masks), probably a gimmick like Chris Jericho’s Best In The World/Parasitic Hypocrites was very intelligent, since at the end of the day he was kinda right, in that Shawn was a liar/manipulator and he was almost certainly the best at what he did at the time. Heels like Miz on the upswing to the WWF Title, AJ Lee for a week or two around her pipebomb heels who are right but are saying they are right the wrong way, that’s clever when done right.

But what of you, dear readers? Which gimmicks have challenged your thinking?

PowderFace Jiggly Butt Gimme Gimme Gimme Dat.

I’m just going to sit here for a moment and try to work out how someone comes up with a name like that.

Anyway, that guy has a question.

Does Shawn Michaels hold the record for most forfeited/vacated championships belts ever? Twice with the tag titles (Diesel/Dude Love), the IC Title (Razor), WWE Heavyweight title (after 97 Rumble). How did this happen so many times with the same guy? I can’t remember how exactly the tag titles got put back on the Hart Foundation after the Rockers won….but again, no loss of title via pinfall/submission. Is anybody else even as close him?

Sadly Daniel Bryan’s on his way up the ranks..

Anyway, Shawn just got injured/suspended at bad times. Totally not because he wanted to get out of jobs, no…

*1/4 of a Chandler*

The Rockers tag thing was invalidated on local TV shows only since it never aired. Once again from historyofwwe.com…

WWF @ Ft. Wayne, IN – Allen County Coliseum – October 30, 1990
Wrestling Challenge taping:
Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match to win the titles at 25:01; fall #1 – Jannetty pinned Bret by blocking a sunset flip at 9:33; fall #2 – Hart pinned Michaels with the Hart Attack at 19:23; the move was heavily hampered by the fact the top rope had fallen down; the rope was reattached after the fall; fall #3 – Jannetty pinned Neidhart after Michaels prevented the Hart Attack and Jannetty fell on Neidhart for the win; after the bout, the Harts shook hands with the new champions and raised their hands; this match was never shown on television because the top rope fell off at around the 12-minute mark and Vince McMahon felt he could not air it; the titles were later returned to Hart & Neidhart and the title change was never mentioned aside from WWF President Jack Tunney officially reversing the decision of the match on TV stations in the immediate area; a clip of the finish of the 3rd fall were eventually shown in September 1995 prior to Jannetty’s return to the WWF

So if you include that one, there’s 5 vacated reigns. Gotta be a record, right?

Well…

TNA Tag Titles in 2010 due to legal issues.
WCW Tag Titles in 1999 due to injury.
WCW US Title in 1999 due to knee injury.
WCW US Title in 1999 due to Ric Flair being mad with power.
WCW World Television Title in 1999 by tossing the belt into the trash.
WWC Universal Heavyweight Championship in late 2007 due to no-showing events.

As well as a couple other reigns ending in weird fashion, your winner at not losing, Scott Hall!

Unless a reader has a better number out there.

Speaking of titles changing hands, jayzhoughton has my time consuming questions for the week.

How many times has a World Title been won by a wrestler who lost earlier in the night, who were they and when was the first example of this? The only time I can think of pre Money In The Bank is Bret Hart, Wrestlemania X.

I’m just gonna stick to WWF title here because I’m not made of time. If people ask nicely I’ll do the World Title next week. If you’re not a fan of these blocks of texts, might want to tap out here.

So anyway, the first ever ‘lose then win the belt’ is not actually Bret, but a year earlier with Hogan. Hulk teamed with Beefcake at Wrestlemania IX to challenge for the WWE Tag Titles against Money Inc. Hogan and Beefcake lost by a bullshit DQ due to Danny Davis, and then Hogan went and won the World Title later that night off Yokozuna.

Then comes Bret the next year at Wrestlemania X, as you remembered. Lost to Owen clean at the start, then beats Yokozuna later that night.

Mankind is the next guy, as when he won his first WWF Title on Raw shown Jan 4th 1999, earlier in the night he lost to Triple H for a spot in the Royal Rumble, thus leading to Mick getting his hands on Shane McMahon which led to a title match for him later that night which he won.

Then we enter the MITB phase, as Edge’s World Title win at New Year’s Revolution on January 8th, 2006 over Cena was after a loss to Flair earlier in the night.

But it’s not all MITB, as No Mercy 07 sees an odd situation where Orton is awarded the WWF title due to Cena being injured, then he loses the title to Triple H, who defends it against Umaga and then Orton wins the title back again in a Last Man Standing match at the end of the night.

Summerslam 2011 sees the next MITB version, as Del Rio loses in the opening 6 man tag at the start of the show, then cashes in MITB on Punk at the end of the night.

And then the last guy so far is Rollins at Wrestlemania 31, losing to Orton then winning the world title via MITB cash in. So 7 guys so far with the WWF title.

And for funsies what wrestlers have won a World Title off of a loss, ie they lost their last match before winning the world title?

Of the ones I can be sure of, the above, plus…

Stan Stasiak seems to be the first for the WWF Title, he lost to Chief Jay Strongbow by DQ the night before he won the WWWF World Title off of Pedro Morales.

Andre The Giant was next, as he won the WWF World Title off Hogan on February 5th 1988, but a week earlier on January 27th, WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow defeated Andre the Giant & Ted Dibiase in a tag match.

A few nights before Survivor Series 91, Jim Duggan & Sgt. Slaughter defeated the Undertaker & Jake Roberts, albeit when Slaughter (sub for Randy Savage) pinned Roberts. This was the 24th, 27th Taker won the title off Hogan.

Night before the 92 Royal Rumble, Hogan beat Flair by count out, then Flair won the World Title at the Rumble.

(I think Yokozuna at WMIX counts but the result of the last match before the show is unknown, alas.)

A week before Survivor Series 95, which was apparently the last show before the PPV, Bulldog pinned Bret Hart. Hart pinned Diesel on the PPV… That’s iffy though.

Same as with Shawn Michaels, apparently WWF didn’t run for two weeks before Wrestlemania XII, thus at MSG on March 17th, WWF World Champion Bret Hart & Undertaker defeated Diesel & Shawn Michaels via disqualification when Diesel hit the Undertaker with a steel chair as Taker had Michaels set up for the tombstone; Dok Hendrix was the guest ring announcer for the bout; after the match, Diesel hit Hart with the chair before doing the same to Michaels; moments later, as Michaels was helped from the ring, WWF TV cameras picked up him saying, “I’m going to kick his seven-foot ass” all counts.

Night before the Final Four PPV, Bret Hart lost to Undertaker in an elimination match under the same rules as the PPV match. Hart tossed Austin then was pinned by Vader. Bret would win the belt at the PPV.

Bret would again lose to Taker in the last match before winning the World Title at Summerslam, this time in a three way with Austin, Taker pinning Bret with a chokeslam on the 28th of July in a dark match after the TV tapings.

The next champ, Shawn Michaels, lost by DQ to Ken Shamrock on the Raw before Survivor Series 97.

Austin became the first guy to have his ‘loss before winning the title’ be the losing of the belt itself. Lost the title to Kane at the 98 KOTR, won it on Raw the next night.

An exact week before Rock won the title back off Mankind at the 99 Royal Rumble in a famous match, he lost to The Undertaker.

Mankind became the second ‘Loss was the Title Loss’ guy when he lost the title to Rock at the Rumble then won it back a couple days later in the Empty Arena Halftime Heat match.

Night before Over The Edge 99 where Taker won the Title (I don’t blame you if you don’t remember that one) Champ Steve Austin, the Rock, & the Big Show defeated Triple H, the Undertaker, & the Big Bossman in a streetfight after Austin hit the Stunner on the Bossman.

Austin loses control of the WWF at King of the Ring 99, wins World Title next night on Raw.

Triple H didn’t win the belt at Summerslam 1999 off Austin in the three way, he had to beat Mankind the next night on Raw.

The Rock pinned Triple H on the last show of 99, before Hunter won the title off of Big Show on the first show of 2000.

Triple H again lost his last match before regaining his title, a week before his iron man match at Judgement Day, The Rock & the Acolytes defeated Triple H, Road Dogg, & X-Pac.

New year, similar deal. On Smackdown before No Way Out 2001, WWF World Champion Kurt Angle, Edge, & Christian defeated the Rock, the Undertaker, & Kane in a No DQ Match, before Angle lost the title to Rock at the PPV.

Night before the October 8th 2001 Raw where Austin regained the WWF title from Kurt Angle, he lost to… Kurt Angle.

Week before Wrestlemania X8, in a main event preview, Hogan and Rock no-showed Jericho pinned Triple H. Guess how that played out at the PPV?

Night before Armageddon 02, Angle teamed with Benoit and failed to win the tag titles off of Los Guerreros. At the PPV, he beat Big Show to win the WWE title.

Similarly, on the Smackdown before Angle won the title again off Brock at Vengeance 2003, he teamed with Brock and Zack Gowen and failed to beat Big Show and The World’s Greatest Tag Team. But again, he won the WWE title so it’s all good.

The night before Brock won the title in a 60 minute iron man match off Kurt Angle, he lost a title match to Kurt Angle by submission… In 2 minutes.

Couple weeks before JBL won the WWE title he lost a match to Eddie at a house show, last match before he won the title.

Night before Edge beat RVD (Raw, July 3rd, 2006) to win the title, he lost to Cena.

A while later, the last Raw before Backlash 08 sees future WWE Champion Triple H on the wrong end of a tag match, WWE Champ Randy Orton, Edge, Chavo Guerrero Jr., & John Bradshaw Layfield beating World Heavyweight Champion the Undertaker, Triple H, John Cena, & ECW World Champion Kane. But that was the night William Regal became King so yay?

Edge took some time off after losing to Undertaker in a Hell in a Cell match at Summerslam 08, returning at Survivor Series 08 to win the WWE title.

Then the night before Jeff Hardy won the big one off Edge at Armageddon 08, he lost to Edge.

Then the night before Royal Rumble 09 where Edge won the title back from Jeff, Rated RKO lost to Cena and Triple H.

April 22nd 2009 saw Randy Orton team with Legacy, Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, and lose to WWE Champ Triple H and Undertaker. Make it HHH, Shane and Batista and put the belt on the line at Backlash and Orton wins instead.

Yet again, when the WWE title is vacated in June 09, Orton loses to Triple H two nights before he wins the vacant title on Raw.

Yet again again, Smackdown before Orton beats Cena in Hell in a Cell at… Hell in a Cell 09, WWE World Champion John Cena, the Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, & Triple H defeated World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk, Randy Orton, Ted Dibiase Jr., & Cody Rhodes when Taker pinned Orton.

Night before 2010’s Elimination Chamber where DAVE beat Cena in an impromptu title match, World Heavyweight Champion the Undertaker, John Cena, & Edge defeated WWE World Champion Sheamus, Batista, & Randy Orton.

Night before Fatal 4 Way 2010 where Sheamus won the title off Cena, Cena pinned him.

A week or so before cashing in MITB on Orton (Nov 13 to Nov 22, 2010), Miz lost a match to… Cena.

The Draft edition of Raw before Extreme Rules 2011 saw WWE World Champion Mike Mizanin (w/ Alex Riley), CM Punk, & Alberto Del Rio (Raw) defeated John Cena, Mark Henry, & Christian (Smackdown!) which brought Cena to Raw and thus allowed him to win the title at the PPV.

In a dark match on the last Raw before Money In The Bank 2011, Punk lost to Cena. The result would reverse at the PPV.

The night before Hell in a Cell 2011 where Del Rio regained his WWE title from Cena by pinning Punk, Cena pinned Del Rio.

Big jump, past all the vacant stuff, last Smackdown before Hell in a Cell 2013, Orton and The Shield lost an 8 man tag to Bryan, Big E and the Rhodes Brothers. But Orton won at the PPV.

And on that far too long to research question, I bid you all goodbye for this week…