wrestling / Columns

Ask 411 Wrestling: Why Did Vince McMahon Help ECW?

June 1, 2017 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina
WWE Vince McMahon Image Credit: WWE

Hello, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling, the only wrestling column dedicated to my ego answering all your questions about wrestling! Do you have one of said questions? Send it on over to [email protected] and maybe it’ll get answered!

Hitting the ground running this week.

BANNER!

Zeldas!

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Non-American WWF Title Matches: The ever reliable APinOz had a few more for us.

Iron Shiek vs Tito Santana. One of Shiek’s only title defences after he beat Bob Backlund.

Ultimate Warrior vs Andre The Giant (technically, as Warrior was never billed as being from the USA)

Yokozuna vs Bret Hart, at successive Wrestlemanias

Bret Hart vs Owen Hart

…and then there seems to be at least one American involved for most of ’94-’08, but then we get Jericho vs Edge, Edge vs Del Rio, Christian vs Del Rio

I wonder if there’s ever been a multi-man title match with all non-American entrants?

Someone’s gonna ask that now, aren’t they?

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I shared a victory method with the above on a specific PPV. I’ve held two specific royal titles, an inaugural title, and was the first to do something, apart from a guy that doesn’t count. Or the other guy. I’ve been managed by former world champions, both male and female, and everyone I’ve held tag gold with is also a former world champion. I’ve won tournaments, been screwed out of tournaments by people who had previously helped me in said tournaments, and I was WWE Hardcore Champion for a few moments one time. Who am I?

Gutter Punk has the answer for us now.

Who am I? I shared a victory method with the above on a specific PPV.
(Vengeance 2003, Jamie Noble beat Billy Gunn & Angle beat Big Show/Brock in a triple threat, both by pinfall) (No Way Out 2003, Noble beat Nidia & Angle beat Cena/Big Show in a triple threat, both by submission) I’ve held two specific royal titles, (King of the Ring in WWE, King of the Mountain in TNA) an inaugural title,
(TNA Championship) and was the first to do something, (Eurocontinental Champion) apart from a guy that doesn’t count. (D’lo Brown) Or the other guy. (Jeff Jarrett) I’ve been managed by former world champions, both male (Bob Backlund) and female,
(Trish, Stephanie) and everyone I’ve held tag gold with is also a former world champion. (Sting, AJ, Chris Benoit) I’ve won tournaments, (KOTR 2000, WWE Tag Titles w/Benoit) been screwed out of tournaments by people who had previously helped me in said tournaments, (Shane McMahon stopped Christian from beating him in the opening match of KOTR 2001, then helped Edge beat him in the final) and I was WWE Hardcore Champion for a few moments one time. (briefly won it from RVD during the Invasion era, lost it back to him right away) Who am I? Kurt Freakin’ Angle

Who am I? I currently work for the guy above. Ignoring everyone outside America, I hold a record for a type of title. My involvement in an ECW guy’s gimmick match is also a record. I’ve turned heel on a TV show that was defunct, then undefunct, and is now again defunct. I’ve won a title in someone’s last match, I’ve lost a title right before I left a company due to contract issues, and I’ve won titles with both members of The Addiction, James Storm, and a guy Jim Cornette really hates. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

Actually, before we begin, a quick request. As you probably have heard by now, the WWE has announced the Mae Young Classic Women’s Tourney for later in the year. A name that should be part of that is one Shazza McKenzie, and to help try and ensure she’s there, there’s a petition thingy I’d like you to sign. You guys came through for me before, and it’d be nice to do a solid for a woman I hope to use as a trojan horse to get myself into the WWE via our ‘friendship’ a good friend and a better wrestler.

So thanks in advance. Oh, wait, video.

Wait, wrong video.

Now onto questions. Ron Gamble asks about injuries, and Ron goes first because he’s Ron.

1. Braun Strowman was beating up people outside the ring before his injury that will keep him out for a few months. These included throwing Kalisto into a dumpster after attacking him, and flipping an ambulance with Roman Reigns (honestly, the most ridiculous thing to ask the viewer to suspend disbelief since, well, I’m thinking…). My question is, from a storyline view, why not just fire him? He is a disruptive force who is intentionally injuring people outside the ring. If this was going on in “real life” (such as it is in wrestling), he would have been gone weeks ago. Why would he still be on the roster now?

Because he draws a reaction, and thus people are buying tickets and coming to shows and such to see Braun. There’s a few ways you justify keeping heels around when they’re super disruptive, they hold a title, other wrestlers want to beat them up, they have a strong contract, stuff like that. But with a guy like Braun, he’s clearly getting a reaction from the crowd, and that counts for a lot. Yes, he’s attacking people, but so far he’s only attacking fellow wrestlers, all of whom supposedly sign a hold harmless agreement, when you’re a wrestler, you can’t complain when you’re attacked by another wrestler, unless it’s excessive or something.

If Braun had started attacking EMTs or something, or if he’d stabbed someone, we’d have an issue that would need to be resolved (“I’d fire you, but I’d rather see Roman Reigns spear you over and over again, it’s true, damn true!”) but just attacking fellow wrestlers and getting a strong reaction from the fans while doing it? That’s within the rules, and he’s kept because of that reaction. Hatred sells just as much as love…

2. Tomasso Ciampa injured himself before Takeover Chicago, and he was going to miss time after that match. Why not have Johnny Gargano turn on Ciampa, instead? It would explain why Ciampa is out, and delay the inevitable “I’m coming for you because you hurt me” feud. Plus, before the team split, everyone expected it would be Ciampa turning. This could have shaken things up.

There’s a time and place to swerve people in wrestling, yes. But the DIY split has been building for a long time, hell this was planned from before they were even a team.


Although both men have worked in the reverse of what we have now, the whole point here has been building to Ciampa as the heel, Johnny Wrestling as the heroic babyface. The ankle injury is sucky timing, sure, but it’s not enough to justify killing all that build up. If Ciampa was going to be gone for a year or something, or retiring, then sure, that would be enough to justify jettisoning the build, but an ankle injury, that’s bearable.

Now, of course, given he suffered a separate injury on the Takeover show, maybe you can argue they should have called an audible at that point… But at the end of the day, they were building to this for a long time, and both men seem more comfortable in these roles, so while I can see the argument for a swerve, it makes more sense to stick to the plan here.

Tommy H asks about names.

I’ve had a burning question for most of my life about wrestlers. Do you think that backstage, wrestlers refer to each other by stage names or by their given names? Now like I’m pretty sure they call Hulk Hogan “Hulk” and not Terry, and I know Michael Shawn Hickenbottom prefers to be called Shawn. But what about people like Seth Rollins? Do you think they call him Seth or Colby? Do they call HHH Hunter or Paul?

Depends on the wrestlers, and their relationship. If you wrestle in the same company as someone for an extended period of time, chances are that you’re going to find a name you’re both happy with, or if there’s a marked power difference, then one that the higher up vet likes. It could be shoot names, it could be worked, it could be a hilarious nickname that’s different from both. For instance, Mick Foley in his books, he talks about how lots of people call him Cactus, some Mick, Paul Bearer would call him Mommy, depends on the guy and the relationship between the two.

As far as HHH, apparently he prefers Paul for the most part these days as he takes a more backstage role, at least that’s what I’ve heard, but old timers and vets and such will almost certainly still call him Hunter. Other than that, Seth for instance, it really comes down to a personal preference, there is no hard and fast rule. Only he would know what he’d prefer to be called, by other workers at least. Obviously if you’re not a worker, you call him Seth, but beyond that, I really don’t know, never met him.

Brian doesn’t technically have a question…

This time, I did the research (although feel free to check for accuracy); I simply want you to draw some inferences from the data

First-time WWE champions who have never held another title in the E’

Jinder Mahal, 2017
A.J. Styles, 2016
Alberto Del Rio, 2011
Sheamus, 2009
Brock Lesnar, 2002
Vince McMahon, 1999
Sycho Sid, 1996
Yokozuna, 1993
Ric Flair, 1992
Undertaker, 1991
Sgt. Slaughter, 1991

Then, before that, it’s kinda everyone–the first 11 champions, I believe.

Hmm. Well, these break down into four main categories. (There’s a fifth, which is the first 11, a.k.a the ‘what else they gonna win?’ grouping)

Well DUH!- The giants, guys who you wouldn’t expect to actually win any other title. Huge guys usually win world titles, tag titles, and nothing else. These guys just got the world ones first. Undertaker, Yokozuna, Sid, Brock Lesnar, Maybe Sheamus

You’re Good For It- Some guys come in and you know they’re good. They’ve been world champion elsewhere, or have a long track record in the business, so you’re safe to put them over for the big title first, because you know they’ll work. Sgt Slaughter, Ric Flair, AJ Styles

New Markets Calling- You want to boost your presence in another market, you want to make a star in a specific place, and what do you know, there’s a guy from there! With their crazy customs! Give him the belt, make him a star, make the region! Alberto Del Rio, Jinder Mahal, Maybe Sheamus

Russo- Just… Russo. Vince McMahon

So yeah, there is some precedent for the concept of Jinder, and to be clear, the issue is not Jinder in of himself. Well, not totally, if he was suddenly the third coming of Hulk Hogan or whatever, then it’d be fine, but he’s not, and that’s fine. The issue is the speed, and there being no storyline justification for why Jinder is now champ.

If he’d been built up over a couple months, and his win had come at Summerslam, there’d be no issues. Or if there was a strong storyline as to why he’s suddenly winning matches, like he’s got a killer new move, or he’s rich enough to buy an entourage and thus cheat his way up, or he’s just really lucky, whatever, if there was some explanation for the rise, that’d be ok.

He just hasn’t changed in any way from the guy who was jobbing out all over the place a short while ago. Pushing into India is all well and good, but not at the expense of the stories you’re telling everyone everywhere.

Speaking of storylines and the title, Shaun has one, and then some matchmaking to discuss.

I know this is a long shot and quite a vague question I just remembered something I heard years ago (I think around 2003-2005) about Psycho Sid. I’m not sure if it was just Sid angling for another run, but I remember reading that he had come up with a storyline that he believed would kick off another wrestling boom period. As far as I can remember it was something to do with him as world champion in a corporate role feuding against John Cena in an Austin character role. I was wondering if you knew/remember anything at all about this or if he ever divulged more information on his proposed storyline publicly and if you could elaborate at all on my hazy memory. Did it happen? Was it an acid dream? Am I on Crack?

Sid returned to the ring in 2004 after a few years away due to THAT leg injury. I do recall a vague mention that he had an angle idea for a WWE return, but to be honest most everyone does, every old timer is sure they could make lots of money with an angle with them at the center, hell, pretty much EVER wrestler ever has had that idea.

Ok, so from what I found, 2007 was when he was pitching for a return, and was getting into shape and such, and at 46, that wasn’t outside the realm of possibility. The report I found first indicated WWE actually had an idea for WM22 and Sid, although what that would have been, I’ve got no idea. (Replacing Vince as his muscle against Shawn maybe?)

But beyond hinting, nothing came out, as far as I could tell. Sid was/is one to play his cards close to his chest, in that he didn’t do any WWE interview segments for DVDs and such as he wanted his return to be a big surprise, if/when it happened. So quite possibly he’s quietly working on the storyline now for Gunnar Eudy to use someday.

Also just wanted to ask some fantasy matchmaking questions…

I’m not making these up for the record people, people do ask!

If you could redo the Invasion Main Event as a Wargames match who would your ideal picks be for a WWF Team and WCW Team?

Well if I’m redoing everything that’s at least a three way match because the Alliance doesn’t exist, but ok, if I’m stuck with the two sides as they exist at the time…

Alliance: Austin/RVD/Booker/Storm/Raven (Leader, Dragon, Centerpiece, Submission guy, Lunatic)
WWF: Rock/Angle/Taker/Kane/Jericho (The big 5, assuming Angle doesn’t turn)

DDP is the ref, as he’s cut a deal with both sides to be totally impartial in exchange for an iron clad contract afterwards, then after WWF wins he beats everyone down and spraypaints nWo on everyone to start the next big angle.

If, however, I’m allowed to rebook everything from the ground up?

WWF: Angle/Regal/Taker/Kane/Edge
WCW: Goldberg/Sting/Christian/Flair/Scott Steiner
ECW: Austin/Raven/Dreamer/RVD/Storm
Sanity: Rock/Jericho/Awesome/Hardyz

Elimination style, DDP still ref because I still want the nWo invasion to start the second the InVasion ends, the idea being that they’ve been manipulating things to cause chaos and such and then come in and take over, a sort of inversion of the ‘Vince sent them to kill WCW’ conspiracy theory.

Shaun’s other question will need some thinking, so let’s instead move onto Ryan and his belt questions.

Just watched the Raw after WM14 (March 30 1998) when the new World and Intercontinental titles were revealed. While Austin coming into the ring, looking at the battered Winged Eagle then to McMahon’s shiny new toy and swapping them out was probably the best new belt presentation ever, Rocky was simply just shown backstage with the Nation and his new strap over his shoulder with no mention. So the question is; How much thought goes into these things? I feel like it’s another thing fans value more than the wrestlers, and maybe it’s only a subculture of fans who fascinate themselves over belts.

More than you might expect actually, in that case the idea I believe was to not draw attention to it because WWF was changing the belt design due to a falling out with Reggie Parks. Parks owned the rights to the designs he used on the WWF title belts. WWF/Vince wanted to own them because they were their belts, and plus by owning the rights no-one else could make replicas. Mr. Parks liked making replicas since it was profitable, so the two sides fell out, and WWF got new belts designed in house. So with that one, the point was to quickly switch and pretend this was the same belt, or at least not draw attention to it.

This was the same reason why they switched Winged Eagle, but with that one, it would be noticed, so they had the switch on air mentioned.

But yeah, you do think about these things, it’s not something they do on whim, unless you’re Steve Austin and have the Smoking Skull title belt made without WWF’s knowledge. WWF did and does think about these things, but obviously some fans will think about them more. And maybe over think them, as in the case of the WWF Hardcore Title and how it just had to be the belt Perfect smashed up, except it wasn’t.

As an aside, is there a favorite and least favorite belt moment for you?

As in moments where belts are the focus? Least favorite is tough, but I guess it would be the debut of the Spinner belt. NEVER liked that belt, ”Look, it spins!” notwithstanding.

Favorite? The bridges do hold a special place in my heart, but my fav moment is when Bobby Heenan debuted the Big Gold on WWF TV.

And a quickie perhaps, but since the Network doesn’t have all programming from 1998 up, maybe it’s covered on Superstars or Shotgun… after Austin disposed of Rocky’s IC belt over the bridge, there was no belt on the Raw’s leading up to the PPV that month, but on the PPV itslef Rock had a new belt all of a sudden, again with no mention. Was there ever a moment on WWF programming showing this new belt coming to The Rock?

Nope, the belt just returned at Royal Rumble 1998, with no explanation.

They made a new one, or found the old one, I guess.

Back a day to WrestleMania 14 for a moment. I read somewhere about Miguel never even entering the ring at the start of the 15 team battle royal, but I can’t remember where and why. What injury prevented him going into battle?

It was never said specifically what was wrong, he just suffered an injury and was out for a while, with some confusion as to when it occurred. I postulated in the past that there’s three options as to how it went down.

A) he got injured right before the show and thought he could make it but trying to get into the ring worsened the problem or B) he got injured right before the show and thought he could hang around for the quickie payday but in laying down he hurt the injury more, or C) he injured himself trying to get into the ring somehow.

With my guess being C, as I’ve seen stupider injuries, hell I’ve had stupider injuries. I buggered my leg up a show ago taking a step to the right! Maybe if I’d put my hands on my hips first…

Anyway, the specific injury was never said out loud, to my knowledge. Maybe Meltzer knew, and someone will tell me so.

Obviously The Man wants to circle back to Kid Rock.

1. How awesome is the WWE Desire video set to to the tune you mentioned last week, and did it inspire anything you use in the article?

It is indeed pretty awesome. And because of it, I have the snazzy BANNER~! you see all the way up the top. Beyond that, it hasn’t really inspired anything as such, but being the BANNER~~! is pretty big. Well, it started as an avi for a messageboard I used to go to (Hey Stablewars!), someone cut out the champions parade bit into a gif, and then once I started this I got someone to put it in the middle of the picture above and create the glory that is BANNER~!

So yeah, it’s cool.

2. Would you like to retract any previous false news you reported about Kid Rock’s musical skills, based on new knowledge you have received?

Not really, no. He’s clearly a competent musician, very talented, and popular with his fanbase. He’s just not my cup of tea most of the time, and that’s fine. I don’t like The Young Bucks, or ultraviolent wrestling, but I don’t begrudge others enjoying them. You like Kid Rock? Awesome, I’m glad you have that in your life. But I reserve the right to make fun of him and pretty much everyone because I do that a lot. I will make jokes and pretend to hate on anyone if I think it’ll be amusing and/or entertaining. Except Victoria, obviously.

3. Any chance I could get you to reference the fact that you’re not only a wrestler, but also a champion, so we all have to drink TWICE?

I’m actually a double champion, I am YOUR Newcastle Heavyweight Champion and STILL YOUR Wrestling Go 24/7 Watermelon Champion, so you’ll have to drink what, four times?

… That’ll do.

Chris asks a question that should really be asked more, when you think about it.

Always a joy to read the column, keep up the great work. I’ve just finished re reading The Rise & Fall Of ECW (& The Death Of WCW) and it got me thinking, Vince McMahon has always been ruthless when it comes to business, like picking up the best talent from the territories in the early days, my question is, why do you think he was so generous when dealing with Paul Heyman by doing cross promotions & exchanging talent with ECW (sending Lawler in for angles, Taz back to win the World title when Mike Awesome left for WCW without dropping the belt, 3 months notice of Foley & advance notice of others heading to WWE so they can plan how people leave instead of going mid angle, releasing Shane Douglas from his contract with no problems when the ‘Dean’ gimmick failed) but not to other companies and also why Bischoff was just the complete opposite in how badly he constantly treated Heyman with the talent raids ?

It is odd, in a way, how seemingly benevolent Vince was to ECW, given his reputation and actions in the past. Except that you have to view WWF/ECW not in the terms that Heyman portrayed it in, as on par with WCW/ECW and them being the big guys that the scrappy ECW underdog was fighting, but rather as the unofficial developmental brand of WWF, just like Memphis Championship Wrestling, or FCW, or OVW, or Deep South, and so forth.

Vince keeping Heyman on his good side allowed him to get a head start on any promising ECW talent he could pick up, gave him a place totally removed from his empire to allow someone to work on their gimmick and such, as Al Snow did, and maybe, just maybe, stick it to WCW a bit. Yes, Vince occasionally screwed ECW over (taking the Dudleyz and Taz just as ECW got on cable was nasty) but overall he seems to have liked Heyman, but more importantly he saw value in keeping ECW on side. After all, when ECW was dying, he lent them $600K to keep them going, which sure, you can see as him trying to help them survive, or, you can view it as him trying to make sure he had skin in the game so if ECW went under, he was a creditor and thus could swoop in and get the trademarks and tape libraries quick smart.

Bischoff on the other hand was strictly above board, oddly enough. He viewed ECW as a threat, just as he viewed WWF as a threat. He wanted to win, and to win, they had to die. WWF was the focus, but if he could hurt ECW and help WCW (and believe me, his raids certainly did that) then he would, because business is business is business.

Vince played a long game, and saw value in keeping something nearby but separate. Bischoff just wanted to crushkilldestroy. I guess we’ve seen which side had the better idea…

Jason has some Austin questions.

As it has been… for over 50 years you have been the revolutionary force in Ask 411! (Will anyone get that?)

Well I got it…

I have a couple of Stone Cold Steve Austin related questions for you. The first one stems from a comment you made in the 5/18 edition of Ask 411. When you were asked about wrestlers who could fit into any era, you said the following of Austin:

Stone Cold Steve Austin – Pre Owen Driver 97? Hell yes. Post Owen Driver 97? Considering they had to reinvent the entire company around him to make it work, I’m not sure.

Now I understand that due to the damage caused by the piledriver, Austin changed his in-ring style to that more of a brawler, but I never understood how that was more beneficial to him vs the combo brawling/grappling style he had already been using prior to the piledriver. It seemed he risked a lot more damage to his neck engaging in the physically impacting style he took up – lots of slams and other back bumps, along with various chair shots. Did Austin, really need to change up his style after the piledriver? And if so, what were the benefits physically speaking in doing so? And while we’re on this topic, can you elaborate on your statement from 5/18 that they had to reinvent the entire company around him to make it work?

Well no, he didn’t have to change his style too much after the Owen Driver, had he just gone and got the surgery he ended up getting in 99. He’d have been out a year, but when he came back, he’d be a little more limited, but the hybrid guy we saw in 01/02, the guy who had all those awesome matches with Angle, he’d have been around earlier.

But by not getting the intense, one full year out surgery? Yes, he had to change his style. You go watch his Stunning days, or even the Ringmaster, he moved quicker, he bumped more, and he used a different style. Some of the change would be due to age and experience and all that, sure, but he still fundamentally moved differently, in order to tell a story to the level he wanted.

He never took a chair shot to the back of the head, he never bumped too wildly, he was a lot more grounded in his style. It wasn’t so much to protect the neck as it was to be able to wrestle for a long time night in, night out. Throwing fists is easier than doing slams, working over a leg with lots of moves and holds takes more movement and effort than just stomping a guy. He changed his style to adapt to the limitations of his neck, in order to be able to still work a match for the amount of time and effort he had to.

Which is not a bad thing, don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say he was wrong to do that, quite the opposite, outside of the question of if he should have gotten the surgery done. The style fit the character, and it allowed him to work. But after the surgery, he moved more smoothly and freely, and that’s why his in ring work became ‘better’. Pre-surgery though, he worked because he as mega over, and he was smart enough to work with what he could do. Remove the overness, and I’m not sure how well that’d go over.

As for changing the company around him, it’s something of a chicken and the egg situation, as the company was evolving into Attitude, which brought a different vibe to the wrestling, and he was mainly working with brawlers, Foley, Taker, Kane. But that said, the WWF style did change with him on top, as the Hart/Michaels wrestling standards dropped away. Whereas before you’d expect a main event to tell a story with a mix of brawling, and technical wrestling, maybe some high flying, now you would get brawls around the arena, and blood, and weapons, and lots of strikes and big moves, punch-kick-finisher as it was dubbed. Less more small bumps, just a few big ones. That’s how the company evolved. Now yes, you can argue that would happen anyway with Russo Attitude coming in, but Austin being physically limited certainly helped that get solidified.

But again, not saying that’s a bad thing, that punch-kick-finisher is automatically a horrible style. You can tell a great story in that style. Or you can have a dull, heatless, heartless brawl with weapons and stuff. Like any wrestling style, it can be done well, or poorly.

The other question I have for you is one I’ve been meaning to ask you for a long time. Everyone fondly remembers the Stone Cold / Rock promo on the RAW before Survivor Series in 2001, where they had the highly entertaining sing along which led to the big brawl to highlight the “importance” of the final battle of the InVasion that coming Sunday. One thing that I have trouble remembering is if there was any follow up to the last line The Rock says just before he delivers a Rock Bottom to Austin (@14:25 in the following). The Rock says “The Rock will never, ever forget…” and then bam Rock Bottom!

Did the WWF/E ever follow up on that line in later matches or storylines between the two – it seemed then, and it still does today, to have been too important a comment to leave hanging between the two. From a storyline pov, clearly The Rock is angered by Austin’s betrayal of the WWF during the InVasion, his actions during that time, perhaps leading all the way back to when Austin sold his soul to Vince at Wrestlemania. After Survivor Series, Austin and The Rock would be intertwined in the tourney to unify the WWF and “World” titles, then team up vs the nWo before Mania 18, and then feud once more leading up to Mania 19 – did this comment from The Rock ever come up during any of these stories or has it been lost in time?

Another promo that is cut to shreds on the Network…

Anyway, the line may have turned up in promos, I don’t recall it either way, but it was meant more as the coda to the segment, as for all the silliness and interactions the two had, at the end, Rock still remembered that Austin had wronged him.

That said, if you do want to tie it all together, this is the start of Hollywood Rock. Hollywood Rock began because Rock’s ego got inflated in Hollywood, which then ran into the fact that the fans still liked Austin, maybe that little bit more. Austin won Superstar of the Decade, even after everything he’d done to the WWF, done to the Rock. Rock hadn’t forgotten all that, he remembered how Austin had attacked him, turned his back on The People, and yet The People still accepted him, still put him ahead of The Rock, Movie Star? The Rock didn’t forget anything, The Rock remembered every beatdown, every stab in the back, every beer soaked attack. And if The People wouldn’t, or couldn’t, or chose not to, then he’d forget about The People…

And on that coda, I’ll say goodbye for now, see you all next week, after you sign that petition!