Ask 411 Wrestling: Why Wasn’t Nash Booked at WM 18?

Live, or at least as live as written text can be without some sort of animation involved, it’s Ask 411 Wrestling!

A huge thanks to Jed ‘Still Waiting On My Lazy Ass’ Shaffer on covering for me last week, I think he did a bang up job. I feel you should reward this with a follow on the twitters and/or check out his Wrestlecrap work. He’s good at that there writing.

If you have a question you want me to try and answer with equally incorrect grammar, [email protected] is where you should send it.

CLASSIC BANNER!

Like I said, I’m gonna flip between the two.

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! For those 15 second periods where you need stimulation dammit!

Me On Twitter~!
http://www.twitter.com/411mania
http://www.twitter.com/411wrestling
http://www.twitter.com/411moviestv
http://www.twitter.com/411music
http://www.twitter.com/411games
http://www.twitter.com/411mma

Feedback Loop

Not gonna talk about another dude’s work. Just not baseball.

The Trivia Crown

I am a pay-per-view event. The result of my main event is not the first time this has happened at me, but it is the first time it happened in the last match of the night. I featured the second comeback of the year for one wrestler, although he didn’t wrestle on my card. I had consequences-of-winning stipulations on four of my matches, but only one came to pass. My subtitle is shared by no less than thirteen albums, seventeen songs, four books and two movies. I am the earliest edition of me to ever take place in the calendar month, and the second edition to take place in a specific city (but the first time in this arena). What event am I?

rjc32586 had the answer, but given there was some confusion about the clues, I’ll let Jed explain it.

I am a pay-per-view event. The result of my main event is not the first time this has happened at me, but it is the first time it happened in the last match of the night. (The world title changing hands. This event marks the first time it changed hands in the main event, but it changed hands once before in 1992 … just not in the main event.) I featured the second comeback of the year for one wrestler, although he didn’t wrestle on my card. (Shawn Michaels.) I had consequences-of-winning stipulations on four of my matches, but only one came to pass. (Brian Pillman wearing a dress.) My subtitle is shared by no less than thirteen albums, seventeen songs, four books and two movies. (Hart & Soul.) I am the earliest edition of me to ever take place in the calendar month, and the second edition to take place in a specific city (but the first time in this arena). (August 3, in East Rutherford, New Jersey) What event am I?

Summerslam 1997

Maraviloso is back to give us this week’s one!

I am a living pro wrestler. I’ve had several gimmick/wrestling personas and have won singles and/or tag team titles with all of them. My first gimmick had a name which was used many years later by someone better known on the internet and WWE’s version of a wrestling promotion than by casual fans. I have a loose connection with wrestling groups from WCW, WWE and ECW, including The Horsemen. I’ve won singles and tag team titles with or from several members of WWE’s Hall of Fame. I’ve teamed with vikings, gorillas, weather events and common men. And I even did a favor to. . . mankind by accepting a head position with a current wrestling promotion. And, unlike a rock band from the 80’s, I am a man with lots of hats. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

AJ starts us off. No, I don’t think they’re THAT AJ.

Or the other one either, come to think of it.

Good day, just a question on the mind.

Well, we know WWE always hiring and looking for new wrestlers. Why doesn’t WWE “recycle” some of the old wrestlers they have there as well?

For example, remember Great Khali? He debut as a strong giant, who could of “flatten a basketball with his barehands”, then WWE screwed up his image now we get the Punjami Goof off. But we know Khali can pull off the Monster Heel Gimmick again.. why not just pull him off TV go back to the drawing board and give him a reboot. Give him a new Gimmick and a new Image bring him back. Call him the Enforcer or something? The same I can say with some of the other Talents there?

We’ve seen wwe do it before. Like Ryback, Bray Wyatt for example. Is some wrestlers unrecyclable?

Yes, I do remember Great Khali. I sometimes wake up screaming about it.

Now, in the general sense, wrestling is built on reinvention. No matter how badly a character or wrestler is going, sometimes just a small tweak can lead to greatness, and sometimes you need to do a massive overhaul and start again. And the thing about wrestling is that you can do that, it can work, and you can reboot a career and a company seemingly overnight.

But that was a lot easier in the old days. Back in the territories, if you flopped as a hot young babyface surfer in one region, you could go dark foreboding devil worshiper in the next place and almost no-one would realise or, more importantly, care.

Today… It’s a lot harder to reinvent yourself totally, especially inside a company. It’s certainly possible, see Bray Wyatt, but you need to commit to it totally. You need to sound, wrestle, look totally different.

And the problem with Khali is that it’s pretty much impossible for him to do it. To be diplomatic, Khali’s voice and style and wrestling abilities are all fairly unique and hard to mask. To be less diplomatic, the guy can barely move, you expect him to be able to reinvent his wrestling style fully?

Khali in the old days could easily have worked an Andre schedule, come in for short bursts then move onto a new company before people realised he sucked. But in this day and age, in the WWE, he’s always going to be Great Khali and there’s no point reinventing him.

But that doesn’t mean he won’t be back as himself…

Matt in SacTown asks about heels getting face reactions.

With so many transitional events that occurred in the mid-90’s, it’s impossible to pin-point one particular moment that “started the Attitude Era.” That said, my personal vote has always gone to the crowd reaction at The Garden for Sycho Sid’s title win over Shawn Michaels at the ’96 Survivor Series, which leads to my question…

In the modern WWF/E era, was Sycho Sid the first heel challenger to receive a predominantly positive reaction when he won the title? (Subjective question, I know, but the pro-Sid/anti-Shawn crowd was as glaring as it was unique) Thank you in advance!

The issue is defining ‘modern’ era here, because off the top of my head Ric Flair winning the WWF title at the Royal Rumble 92 got a somewhat positive reaction despite the intention (and later editing) to be people being upset that Hogan was ‘screwed’.

But Sid was probably the first time it was pretty noticeable that there was a heel winning the title to a face reaction, Flair and Taker’s first ones didn’t get huge heel reactions but they weren’t as strong as Sid’s one.

But of course there’s plenty of occasions long before Sid winning the title where the fans didn’t react ‘right’, but Sid was one of the first times it involved the world title in WWE, sure.

Speaking of tall former world champs, Raza?

I always wonder why Kevin Nash was not on the final card for WM X8? He was still some draw back then and could still had a decent matchup?

A few different reasons coming together, although some may or may not be totally accurate, it’s hard to say for sure.

Supposedly, the original idea was for all three nWo members to have a big match on the show, settling into Hogan/Rock, Austin/Hall and Nash/Taker, once Austin and Hogan couldn’t work out their issues. The storyline is simple, with the nWo going after the three biggest names in the company, looking to take them all out in one go, so on and so forth.

But, like Austin, Taker wasn’t happy with that booking and requested Flair instead, and that led to Nash V Kane being pencilled in. A bit of a step down, but ok. (Angle would wrestle Mr. Perfect in this scenario, which would have been extremely good, I think.)

However, before this match was signed, two issues popped up. One, supposedly, Nash was dealing with an injured quad, and while he could wrestle, he probably shouldn’t have been. And two, and slightly more importantly, Hall was seen as a slight liability, with higher ups in the WWE not 100% sure they could trust Hall to make it to Wrestlemania before self-destructing.

So, since Nash/Kane wasn’t that big a deal, that match got canned and Nash was moved to Hall’s corner so as to A) rest him and B) be the back up so that if Hall was fired/put in rehab/won Superball, they could slide Nash into Nash/Austin at short notice.

Dusty wants to talk about the crowd.

1. From the standpoint of the televised product, which factor hinders a match more, poor commentary, or a dead/poor crowd?

Yeesh, neither of them is particularly good, obviously. And obviously you’d want to avoid them if possible… However, assuming that if one is poor than the other is good, then I’ll take the dead crowd, because a good announce team can cover for a dead crowd (‘The fans are in shock!’), plus there are tricks and ways to try and force a reaction from a crowd, it’s easier to get a crowd to liven up than it is to deal with a commentary team that is actively bad. Plus worst case scenario, you use crowd noise.

A dead crowd will just make that segment come off flat. A poor commentary team can kill a program DOA.

However, that’s the booker in me talking, as a wrestler, if it was my match, I would take a commentary team of Mike McGurick and Mongo McMichael if it meant the crowd was reacting. For a match specifically, while the TV viewer may well want to take a drill to their temple to make the announcers shut up, if the crowd reacts well enough you can get people to ignore the announcers. Assuming the match is shown in full and not shoved into a corner to show a limo backstage or something, for the match itself, crowd over announcers. For the show as a whole though, announcers over crowd.

2. As a performer, what do you make of the “this is awesome” chant? As a fan, I hate it. I read a quote from Jim Cornette that read, “We have gone from simulating conflict to exhibiting a performance.” That sums it up pretty well to me as a fan, too meta, too snarky, but I was curious how an actual wrestler felt. Thanks man.

A reaction is a reaction. Certainly it’s not a chant I’ve gotten all that much, nor one I want, but if that’s how the crowd wants to react, whatever. It’s something, and something is better than nothing.

I must state though, that while I don’t have a problem with the chant in of itself, I do have an issue with the pursuit of it. You can only control the audience so far, you can lead them to some degree but at the end of the day they can and will react how they like. But I really have an issue with wrestlers and bookers who want that chant, who go after it with their matches and storytelling. Plenty of people get that reaction through awesome wrestling and such, that’s fine, but if you’re loading up your moveset with whatever flashy flip you think you can do with no rhyme or reason beyond wanting the IWC heavy audience members chanting ‘this is awesome’ more at you than at other people, if you’re more concerned with message boards saying how awesome your company’s wrestlers are than getting non-fans to come back to your next show and bring their friends, that I have a problem with.

Not that going after the IWC isn’t a viable business model, or that above a certain point casual fans will come anyway, just that I know too many indy wrestlers more concerned with getting five stars from @IWCmember4Life than making sure Billy had a great time and brings his friend Sally next time. But then a lot of those guys are more popular than me, so what do I know?

Bonus question, why the hell do announcers not call moves anymore?

Many announcers do, actually. But I presume you mean in the WWE mainly, since that’s the show with the announcers that are the most disliked. And that we have some idea on, thanks to the leaked WWE Announcer Notes package that came out a few weeks ago.

The basic attitude that comes across when you look through the pages is that WWE doesn’t see itself as wrestling, it’s a show based around wrestling. And thus the announcers shouldn’t call move names, they should instead tell stories, both large and small. According to WWE, hearing a guy say that “Stephen Amell locks in the Green Bow And Arrow Lock on Stardust!” is boring, and instead you have to say something like “The star of CW’s Arrow is cranking back on the neck muscles of the painted freak Stardust, do you think that would hurt?” is better, and draws the audience in more.

Which, if you’re positioning yourself as a TV show based around wrestling, sort of makes sense, but the problem I have with that is that for all the talk about letting the fans react and not spelling out what is onscreen, announcers are part of the show as part of the overall conceit that this is a sporting contest. And sports commentators call the damn game.

But there’s a fair few lances in this windmill, so let’s move on to the InVasion, thanks to Adrian From Ireland

When Shane McMahon appeared in the sky box at Wrestlemania 17 he had some WCW guys with him if I remember correctly. I thought I saw Lex Luger among them. Am I right ? And who else was there to the best of your knowledge ? If Luger was there it must have been his only showing during the invasion angle.

I managed to find a still from the show that was used in this video of Bill DeMott speaking with Chris Jericho on Jericho’s podcast.

There were eleven people there, as DeMott says on the video. I presume the guy on the very end on the left there is the one who looked like Lex Luger. The eleven names listed in the Observer were Johnny Ace, Chavo Guerrero Jr, Mike Awesome, Lance Storm, Hugh Morrus, Sean O’Haire, Mark Jindrak, Chuck Palumbo, Mike Sanders, Stacey Kiebler and Shawn Stasiak. So that’s almost certainly Johnny Ace there.

Alan has a couple final questions from his list.

3) What wrestler(s) has had the most gimmick changes? Now I know we have to set some criteria. When I say changes I mean comlpletly different changes. For example Glenn Jacobs went from Dr. Isaac Yankem to Kane, Charles Wright went from Papa Shango, to Kama, to The Godfather. The undertaker does not count because he was always considered the “dead man.” To clarify further, there would be a complete change and absolutely no reference to the wrestler playing another character previously. Also, I’m limiting it to WWF(E) and WCW.

Under that criteria, assuming you don’t count jobbers who would change names/gears whenever… A couple spring to mind, let’s see…

Nash would be up there, but the problem is that Nash and Diesel are one guy now, and they referenced Vinnie Vegas being Nash in WCW so…

Brooklyn Brawler
Kim Chee
Doink
Abe “Knuckleball” Schwartz
Red Knight

Krusher Khruschev
Demolition Smash
Repo Man
Blacktop Bully
Pain Stewart

Brutus Beefcake
Fur Face
All the WCW gimmicks before Disciple (they kept explaining they led into each other)
Disciple

I guess Brawler and Barry Darsow are tied, with Darsow winning based on having gimmicks that lasted a while. But can anyone think of a six or better?

Speaking of the Montreal Screwjob, I read an interview from Bret Hart many years ago that had that not happened, he would have stayed with the WWF and that Owen would not have been up in the rafters “that night.” However, hadn’t Bret already agreed to a deal with WCW? Isn’t that why Vince had him lose, as he was afraid another wrestler would show up on Nitro with a WWF belt ala Madusa?

I found quotes of Bret Hart answering questions on Facebook in the lead up to Wrestlemania 29 where he is quoted as saying “I honestly think my brother Owen would still be alive today” had the Montreal Screwjob not occurred.” I’m not sure if that’s the same one you’re thinking of, but it’s something he has said, clearly.

Now yes, logistically, the idea that if the screwjob hadn’t occurred, Bret would still be in the WWF and thus Owen wouldn’t have died, that’s not really possible. As you say, the whole reason for the screwjob was because Bret was leaving to WCW and he and Vince were at loggerheads over how to get the belt off him.

Maybe Bret is saying that if he hadn’t of gotten screwed over by Vince, he would have jumped back to the WWF quickly after experiencing WCW, but that wouldn’t have happened, his contract was too long. I think what Bret is talking about is that Vince can be, at times, a vindictive selfish prick.

*1/4 of a Chandler*

I believe Bret thinks that the reason Owen was forced back into the Blue Blazer gimmick, and thus was forced to do the stunt with the quick release harness, was over residual negative feelings between Vince and Bret over the screwjob. If Vince and Bret had managed to part on amicable terms, then Vince has no need to get his own back and Owen wouldn’t have gotten such a stupid gimmick, he could have remained as Owen Hart, Guy Who Is Good At Wrestling But Is Also A Jerk, and thus he’d not have been up in the rafters.

But of course, if Owen had broken his leg at Backlash, he’d have not been up there. If there was a fire in the building during the preshow he might not have been up there. If Koko B Ware wasn’t available for the one shot Blazer appearance they might have dropped the angle, like with any event in wrestling, there’s a thousand points where you could move the needle and change history. Some are just bigger and more obvious to focus on.

Speaking of obvious points in history to focus on, Connor?

what would have happened had Vince gone with Crush instead of Luger as “the Next Hogan.” in 1993?

We’d be talking about how Crush got screwed over when he failed to win the title at Summerslam, and how Bret got such a better reaction at the Rumble when he and Crush co-won, so on and so forth.

OK, maybe a miracle occurs and Crush taps into a previously unknown depth of talent and ability when the world title is within reach and there’s a zeitgeist that existed at the time for surfer dudes I’m not aware of, and the moon and stars align and Vince gets a monkey paw that can grant wishes and all the stuff that is coming out now about Hogan came out then and a bunch of other really unlikely stuff happens, maybe Crush does better than Luger.

But I’ve said before, I don’t think it would have worked with anyone, the Hogan 2.0 thing, while being totally logical and obvious and something even I would have done, it was always going to fail. You needed a performer with the same charisma and ability as Hogan, not just another American with a good body. What Crush had over Luger (homegrown, hair, a tinge of ‘the ethnic’, better workrate) is balanced by what he gave up to Luger (look, promo, track record as champ, body), and there’s nothing to indicate that if they’d booked Crush the same way they booked Luger, Crush would succeed where Luger failed. And sure, if Crush beat Yoko at Summerslam he could have worked, but then if Luger had won the title at Summerslam off Yoko he could have worked.

Even if Crush was the other choice to be Hogan 2.0, as the rumors state, he wouldn’t have changed anything, Hogan 2.0 was always going to fail. Be it Luger, Crush, Diesel, whoever. You had to reinvent the game, Bret, Shawn, Austin, Rock, after a few go rounds of guys like that, then you had Hogan 2.0 in Cena.

From the guy WWE is ignoring right now to the guy they’ve been ignoring for a while now, thanks to Flower Pot Lilac Kisses Floating Amongst a Rainbow…

Maybe you’ve been asked this before, but had the Benoit family tragedy had not occurred, where do you think Chris Benoit’s career would have gone from June 2007-Present? Anymore World Title runs? Would he still be active today? Who would his retirement match been against?

OK, so, let’s wave a magic wand, Chris Benoit now has Homer Simpson Syndrome, and thus he is the exact same in terms of wrestling but his personal life is better. He and Woman have a quiet divorce and Benoit spends his off days engrossed in Pokemon now, whatever. What would his career have been?

Short term, ECW becomes the Chris Benoit show, as he was going to win the ECW Title at Vengeance, and then fill the role that Christian ended up holding as ECW champ, the veteran hand who helps teach the newer guys and puts on great matches with everyone. He’d have probably been face for a while, putting over CM Punk in a series of matches where they traded the belt back and forth until Benoit finally won the feud at Wrestlemania in a Submission match when The Hart Dynasty runs in and Benoit turns heel, then maybe another year as heel ECW champ before putting over Christian to tag him into the role of veteran hand, then a face turn to feud with the Dynasty boys to put them over, a few more months on a retirement run and then he becomes WWE’s new head trainer and ‘today’, occasional NXT Final Boss.

nightwolf asks about a guy who I could segue-way into here but I won’t.

If you understand that ‘joke’ then congratulations, you’re as sick as me.

I remember watching a match in ECW of Sabu. During that match, Sabu got his jaw broken. He preceded to duct tape his jaw shut and continue wrestling his match. Can you tell me what match that was and what year that happened?

That would be Sabu vs The Sandman at ECW House Party, January 10th, 1998, in a Stairway to Hell match, where there was a ladder leading up to barbed wire. Sabu goes for a plancha and lands on the guardrail chin first. Unsurprisingly, this breaks his jaw. He then tapes is up and ‘continues’ the match, but to be honest, if you watch it, after that point he blows most everything he tries and after a few moments Sandman (who was apparently on LSD at the time) got the message and ended the match ‘quickly’.

Which is not to take away from Sabu’s craziness, but still, it wasn’t a five star classic on a broken freaken jaw or anything.

Is Tough Enough a complete waste of time? Ryback seems to be the only contestant that hasn’t fizzled out after being on the show.

Yes, the vast majority of people from Tough Enough are not in WWE now, Miz and Ryback are the only two on air right now. But a lot of guys are still active in the business, and John Morrison could so easily be back at any point where WWE gets a little desperate.

But the thing is, from WWE’s view, they get a bunch of new content, they get anywhere from one to twelve new talents who they build from the ground up and who, in theory, have the support of the fans since they have been on the journey with them. It’s worth the money. Sure, it would be nice if they got a megastar out of the deal, but Miz is a decent enough result given the cost and the amount of content produced.

And on that idea of Miz being worth the Tough Enough series so far, which I’m sure everyone below is now screaming about, I bring this edition of Ask 411 Wrestling to a close, and bid you all goodbye for this week. Ciao!