wrestling / Columns

Ask 411 Wrestling: Will Kevin Owens’ Look Ruin Him?

June 3, 2015 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina

Hello, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling and I’ve got the flu.

But my inflamed glands and overactive nasal cavity are YOUR gain, as (hopefully) this edition will be a little longer since I have more time to do it in. Having said that I’m sure it’ll be the shortest on record, but hey, I tried.

If you want to call me trying, [email protected] is where you should send such messages. And maybe questions, if you’ve got them.

And now, the one thing my illness can’t tarnish, BANNER!

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! That’s still going despite my illness too!

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Top Talkers: Yeah, Heyman belongs there. As does Foley, and Rhodes… Like any top 10 list, it’s what I think at that specific point in time, and there’s always more people than spots.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? While I once took part of the name of the guy who trained me, I’m best known by another name, one that has the same number of letters in the first and last part. I’m one of only four men to have held a specific duo of titles at the same time. I once turned heel to wild cheering from the audience in attendance. I’ve worked as a commentator, working with such names as Vince McMahon and Gorilla Monsoon. I have a connection to Cheese, attempts to escape from prison, and sugar. Who am I?

DarthDaver (with El Atomico’s help) has the answer.

Who am I? While I once took part of the name of the guy who trained me (Ric Flair), I’m best known by another name, one that has the same number of letters in the first and last part (Both have 4 letters). I’m one of only four men to have held a specific duo of titles at the same time (NWA World Tag Team, and NWA US Tag Team titles). I once turned heel to wild cheering from the audience in attendance (Against the Dynamic Dudes at Clash of Champions IX ?). I’ve worked as a commentator, working with such names as Vince McMahon and Gorilla Monsoon (On WWF Superstars and WWF Wrestling Challenge). I have a connection to Cheese (Managed by The Big Cheese in IWA), attempts to escape from prison (Midnight Express was the name of his team with Bobby Eaton and the name of a movie about an American who escapes a Turkish prison), and sugar (Nicknamed Sweet). Who am I? Sweet Stan Lane

Who am I? I began early on as a ref, but eventually moved into a more active role in wrestling. I once told off one of WWE’s most recent signings. I took a buyout from Time-Warner. My first heel run, although important for historical reasons, was pretty quickly dropped. I once suffered an injury in the middle of a UK only PPV. I’ve beaten multiple world champions (and a woman) but never got a major shot at a world title. All my North American wrestling work is owned by WWE now, I’m a Hall of Famer, and I’m a part of the night WWF finally beat WCW in the ratings. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

Brendon starts us off with a quick and easy one.

When/why did the Stevie Richards/Chris Benoit joke come about?

For those of you who don’t hang around the forums and boards of the IWC, one of the many, many, MANY injokes that abounds is the idea that the winner of the 2004 Royal Rumble and the guy who won the World Title at Wrestlemania XX was Chris Be STEVIE RICHARDS.

The basic joke has two halves. One, the notion that right after the murder/suicide that Benoit committed, WWE began to erase him from history, at least whenever possible. The edict was that unless if was a full set like the Anthologies or the like, no Benoit would be shown.

The other dates back to the Nintendo 64 video game WWF No Mercy, one of my all time favorites, in which there was a WWF Championship mode that replayed actual storylines from the WWF leading into Wrestlemania 2000, with the proviso that Big Show was removed from the game and replaced with, of all people, Steven Richards at the height of the RTC run. (Apparently this was done because Stevie was a last minute entry into the game, and since the order to remove Big Show was also last minute, the easiest thing to do was stick Steven in over Big Show’s file and thus he ended up as Shane McMahon’s buddy)

Putting the two halved together for the first time has been credited to Maffew…

But it’s a fairly obvious joke to make, so while I’m happy to give Maffew the credit, it’s entirely possible someone else did it first.

Next up is Michael, who wants to talk about Vince’s opinion on Kevin Owens.

No, not the boss Vince.

With Russo’s rant on Kevin Owens springing to mind, do you think there’s validity to the argument that a guy’s look can hinder his perception as a potential main eventer if he brings the goods in the ring and on the mic? It has always been a knock against Owens that he looks like a “GameStop employee”, but really he’s just a big guy. How’s that different from Vader in the ’90s? Do you think it matters to wrestling fans in 2015? How about casual fans? It certainly affects how WWE will book guys…

The main difference between Owens and Vader is that Vader was positioned and sold as a giant powerhouse maniac, a 6’5 450lbs monster. Owens is a 6 foot flat 266lbs wrestler dude who’s got a bit of muscle and a bit of stockiness but also can move and is self-confident but also a bit lazy. The gimmicks are different and they don’t wrestle in the same style. Vader beats you up, beats you up some more, and then finishes you off with some beating up, and then after the win will continue beating you up because hey, why not? Owens will try to avoid the match, try to avoid the fight, then pick his spot and beat you up just enough to win.

You can read the full blog by Russo here, but the relevant part is below.

When Sami Zayn first came out to the WWE Universe on a national stage . . . there was no IMPACT—the guy was presented as just “another wrestler”. I don’t care what anybody says, in a year nobody will remember that debut. Prior to that that was the Ascension—that was so laughable you “almost” have to think it was intentional. That was followed with Adrian Neville . . . WOW . . . that guy can really get height off the top. You forgot it by the next week. Then of course, this week there was Kevin Owens. A guy who looked like he just came from Gleason’s Gym, where he was training to be a “rassler”. Owens didn’t look like a star, he didn’t smell like a star, as a matter of fact he looked like a guy that could have possibly jumped the guardrail. Which reminds me—I STILL REMEMBER Hillbilly Jim when he was “presented” as “somebody” the first time we saw him on WWE TV. And, Owens dropping Cena? That did nothing but make the 115th time World Champ look bad.

Save your hate mail. This isn’t a Kevin Owens thing, just like it wasn’t a Sami Zayn thing, just like it wasn’t a Adrian Neville thing, just like it wasn’t an Ascension thing. Those guys are strictly employees who get paid to do what the boss says to go out and do—that boss is Vince McMahon. Somewhere along the line, shortly after the Attitude Era (what a coincidence), Vince McMahon forgot how to make stars. He forgot how to create them, how to manufacture them, and how to get them over. When you think about it, who has gotten over to SUPER stardom in the last fifteen years? I’m talking household names? In my opinion that list is quite small, as a matter of fact I’d put two people on it—-Kurt Angle and John Cena. OK, I’ll even allow you to put the beloved Daniel Bryan on there if you wish—but his success had NOTHING to do with creative, other than being given the platform to perform.

He’s done a follow up after Elimination Chamber for completeness’ sake.

Now many people will ignore these thoughts due to the source, which I can understand. But if you’re still reading this and not skipping ahead to the next question, does the look of a guy matter for their long term prospects?

Short answer, yes, kinda.

More in depth answer, it’s complicated, given that there’s several different attitudes and aspects in play here.

The first is the notion that every wrestler has to look like a million bucks. Every wrestler should had the chiselled physique, the impeccable ring gear, the line that if a wrestler doesn’t look better than the people in the audience then he’ll never make it. And with all due respect to those who trot out that line, the hell it does.

That would be true if every wrestler had the exact same gimmick of ‘professional wrestling athlete’. And guess what? They don’t. You have clowns. You have emo freaks. You have lucha high flyers, down and dirty brawlers, bikers, hired guns, cowboys, dozens and dozens of gimmicks require you to actively go out of your way to not look like the average guy on street.

And even if you want to still argue the point, that a guy should still have presence and Owens ‘doesn’t’, you have two main points of contention where that falls over.

One, the era where WWE needs larger than life people to get attention is over, because WWE IS Pro Wrestling to most people, and the idea of any one person or character drawing in viewers to WWE is passé, mainly because of the second point.

And that’s the idea that Vince McMahon still wants a crossover superstar. Because that’s clearly dead.

I’ve said before, and it’s still true, Vince McMahon would rather have 20 Ortons than 1 Cena now. He wants a roster of guys who are over but not superstars, who he can slide in and out at will, none of whom will get over enough to become a problem, who’ll abandon him and his company. He’s picked his Cena replacement, and while he’s having to take a more roundabout route to get him there, he’s still betting on Reigns being his new Cena/Rock combo to be the centrepiece for the company going forward.

And if you think of it like that, then Russo’s complaints about Owens not looking like a star in his debut and whatever are explained by McMahon not wanting a superstar, just another warm body, albeit a warm body HHH likes.

But anyway, will Owens look hurt him? Possibly, but if he gets over enough, he’ll get on the posters, just like Bryan did before his body self-destructed. And hell, Owens’ appearance being normal might actually help, in that just like how Dusty Rhodes was the heavy set plumber down the road who was tough as nails back in the 80’s, Owens is the heavy set guy down the block you’re a little worried about, he doesn’t quite seem right, something is off… Maybe.

But yeah, Owens has a small roadblock in his path, but it’s not like that path is leading to super-duper stardom any time soon. That exit is closed until further notice.

Brian asks me to play soothsayer.

I’d like you to predict the year that we will see these matches/tournaments be held entirely with Divas on a WWE event for the first time:

-Elimination Chamber

Never, because while a man bleeding hardway is a problem, a woman bleeding hardway is a PR nightmare, and by the time society gets to a point where it’s not, WWE probably won’t be around in its current form.

-Ironwoman

If they ever have two mens feuds involving guys who can go an hour or so, then they might well do a WWE Iron Man Network PPV and have one hour Iron Man, and then a half hour Iron Man, Team and Woman match. I’d say 2017.

-Queen of the Ring

Maybe next year if they want to revert the male one to once every two years, AND if three out of four of Charlotte/Banks/Bailey/Lynch make the transition effectively.

-Royal Rumble (yes, I imagine they’d have to do a 15 or 20 woman version)

Never, they’re not going to screw around with the Rumble, it’s too valuable. Not to say that the women couldn’t do it or anything, but they’ve been super-protective of the Rumble, and they’ll avoid any more tampering beyond maybe going to 40 if they need to.

-First Blood

Five years after they revert back to an M rating and stay there.

-Money in the Bank (although if they put it in purse forget I ever brought this up)

Never.

-Hell in the Cell

See Elimination Chamber.

-Russian Chain Match (don’t doubt this as much as you think, having Lana on the roster makes this infinitely more possible)

They MIGHT do a variation on the touch four corners idea, use a rope or something, but not a chain. Even a leather strap match is unlikely.

-WarGames

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

No.

-Kiss My Ass match (I think they would be too nervous about the backlash/reaction at this point)

Sadly that’s more likely than any of the others on your list. Certainly within a year you’ll get a ‘Loser Must ’ match of some sort. Probably not something sexual in any way, but then they had a Slave match so who knows…

nightwolf has a few questions.

1. I was wondering, could you give the back story on Teddy Long? What did he do before coming to the WWE and becoming a general manager?

Sure, I think I can do that.

*digs into old trunk, then comes up blowing off dust* I’ll keep it brief.

Phase 0- Boy. But not in a racist way!

Like a lot of people in the wrestling business who aren’t actually wrestlers, Theodore Long began his ‘career’ as a kid who hung around wrestling shows and eventually began to help out. In his case, he was picked up by Tommy Rich and Abdullah the Butcher as an errand boy, a kid who’d help them out, drive them places, carry their bags, stuff like that. This led to him hanging around the NWA and Jim Crockett shows, and eventually, he sat down and studied for a little while, and applied for his referee’s license.

Debut- Calling It Right Down The Middle!

Teddy Long started as a referee in Championship Wrestling from Florida, where he started his career as a by the books guy. And then…

Phase 2- Define ‘Middle’…

He began to make several questionable decisions, wherein he seemed to start favoring the guys who the fans hated, giving them victories that they didn’t deserve. This eventually led to him being let go from Florida, and moving up north a bit.

Phase 3- Back To The Straight And Narrow…

Referee Teddy Long debuted in the Jim Crockett NWA in 1985, and worked for a few years, being a good ref who did the right thing. It was his hand that counted the three count to give Ricky Steamboat the NWA World Heavyweight Title at Chi-Town Rumble after Tommy Young was knocked out by an errant crossbody.

But after a few years of that, right after counting Steamboat’s big win, well…

Phase 4- For A Given Value Of ‘Straight’ And/Or Narrow…

He reverted back to his old ways. The first major sign of a problem was at Clash of the Champions VI, where after the Road Warriors manhandled him, he refused to make a count for the tag champs, and then later in the match he fast counted a cover to give Mike Rotunda and Steve Williams the tag team titles.

After this, he was stepped down from refereeing title matches. But then after counting a Jack Victory win after a phone shot he blatantly saw, and fast counting JYD down to give Ron Simmons a win, and a couple other incidents, he was officially fired as a referee full stop.

Phase 5- The First Hollaing

Teddy Long got himself a manager’s license, and did some scouting of a few guys. But eventually he picked his first client, a new man called Norman The Lunatic.

Despite this rough beginning, Teddy, sorry, Theodore, ended up with quite a list of clients, managing Doom to the World Tag Titles, as well as a host of talents, ranging from the future Undertaker to Marcus Bagwell.

Hey, they can’t all be winners.

Anyway, his run lasted to around 1996, when he left the company. A couple years passed, and then he debuted in a new company, back in the stripes…

You know what happened from there.

2. Over the years we’ve seen all sorts of Gimmick matches. Hell in a Cell, Cage Matches, Ladder Matches,etc. My question to you is: What was the first gimmick match in wrestling? When did it take place, and who were the participants?

Well now, this comes down to how you define a gimmick match. Because technically? The first gimmick match ever, was a one fall match.

See, when wrestling began, 2 out of 3 falls wasn’t a gimmick, that was the norm, at least when it had gone past the ‘Open Challenge to fans’ stage of the development of modern professional wrestling. Or, if you don’t consider that a gimmick change, then the winner is a tag team match. Again, not thought of as a gimmick today, but it was a big deal when it first came in.

Tag team wrestling came in in San Francisco at the turn of last century, 1901 or so. I’ve read the tornado tag match of Milo Steinborn & Whiskers Savage vs. Tiger Daula & Fazul Mohammed as being the first ever tag team match, but sadly I don’t have info on that.

By all means if you want to dig down and specify what you consider a gimmick match, I’ll probably cop out again, but do feel free to give it a try.

3. Does the WWE suck that bad that they need to recycle old ideas? I mean come on: Axelmania, Macho Mandow, the Meta Powers. I mean seriously? At least Black Machismo was way more entertaining. Why doesn’t anybody tell Vince he’s off his Rocker?

Because his name and signature are on the paychecks, it’s still his company. Sure, if Steph and Triple H want to keep you around you’re probably safe, if you have the writers on your side they might be able to make your case, if you’re moving merch and tickets in some tangible way you’re probably fine, but above all that, if Vince decides he don’t want you, you’re not going to be around.

Anyway, as for the ideas, the reason old ideas get trotted out is because they work, most of the time. I mean, sure, off the top of my head, before the Meta Powers and Sandow, in WWE you’ve had Charlie Haas, Big Show, Stevie Richards, Goldust and Gillberg where impersonation was the main selling point, as well as DX, Santino and Edge And Christian dip into the well a bit. The idea is old. But provided the person doing it is good, then it tends to work, for a given value of the term. Moreso than most gimmicks, impersonation gimmicks get cheap pops, but pops nonetheless.

Now sure, this probably won’t go anywhere, we won’t get the Axel/Sandow snapping moment where they get a title shot and suddenly drop the gimmicks and kill their opponents, nor will we probably get the Meta Powers Explodes idea most people had, where you bring in Alexa Bliss and redo the whole Elizabeth angle (although if they do, turn it on it’s ear and make Axle the bad guy like Hogan really was last time), instead they’ll hang around for a bit before the gimmicks are dropped, but hey, what did you expect, the Miz and Mizdow to have their big moment at Wrestlemania where they had a match where Mizdow finally shed his skin and became Sandow again and was set up as a big star by getting the big win in front of a crowd that loved him? Come on, that’s crazy talk…

And I wish I could Chandler that.

Shaun wants to know about shots fired.

TNA often take “shots” at WWE on air. Are there any instances of WWE taking “shots” at TNA on air?

Todd Grisham had to deal with it a lot on the Byte This internet program, he took some shots there.

But on air, not really, unless you’re the type who considers ignorance a shot. I mean, in the run up to HHH/Sting, WWE kept saying how Sting hadn’t been seen or wrestled since WCW went under, which some viewed as a ‘shot’ at TNA, but really they just ignored them, which is less a shot and more just common sense. Part of TNA’s problem was the constant self-measuring, the constant having to compare themselves to WWE, always holding themselves up to them. They thought it made them look like a competitor, it just made them look desperate and cheap in comparison.

Whereas WWE, by acting like they’re top of the pile and never even acknowledging the ‘competition’ looks much better in comparison, and helps keep some fans in the dark about alternatives, since some people still don’t know wrestling outside WWE exists beyond a generic idea that it has to exist somewhere.

But on-air, to my knowledge, WWE hasn’t taken any shots. On wwe.com, I’m sure there’s been a few, but not on the TV program. I know eagerly await being proved an idiot.

Connor misses Tensai 0.8, which was a much better version.

Why did Hakushi leave the WWF? he was an excellent wrestler with an interesting and unique persona, and he had a great feud with Bret Hart in 1995

Hakushi’s real name is Kensuke Shinzaki, but he’s better known in Puro circles as Jinsei Shinzaki, and he’s better known to western audiences as ‘That guy in white with the tattoos’.

Although that was, unsurprisingly, fake tattoos. They were part of his exaggerated gimmick, in that in Japan he was a serious Buddhist pilgrim, but in WWF he was still that but… Well look at him.

Anyway, I couldn’t find any hard info, the fact is that while he was pretty awesome in the ring and was memorable and what have you, although he is best remembered for the Bret Hart stuff, at the end of his run, he was in a three way feud with Bodydonna Skip and Barry Horowitz. Nothing against either man, but that’s not exactly a mainstream, high profile position.

So, given that unlike today’s superstars, he knew he could make a living at wrestling outside the WWF, he left, with the kayfabe explanation being that after being ‘branded’ by the future JBL after a loss he was ‘humiliated’ and went back home.

He popped up in ECW shortly afterwards under his Jinsei Shinzaki name but still looking like Hakushi, where he had a short run teaming with Hayabusa and fighting the tag champs RVD and Sabu.

He’s now more of a backstage guy, running Michinoku Pro Wrestling since 2003 and helping to form Sendai Girls’ Pro Wrestling as well. Although he did pop up in the 2011 King of Trios match if you want more Shinzaki in your life.

AJ has been so long in the queue he’s come back around to relevancy!

Hi just some questions that came to mind, but do you think WWE is pushing some of their guys too fast into the main event spot? I”d read the dirt sheets about any guys they wanted to make the top face and top heel of the company. they cancel for other guys, then other guys.. then injury change this one, and that one. Just make me wonder what if some of these guys they just pushing too fast? Like look at Ryback, they push him pretty fastly had to slow him down, now they pushing him again and he seems more relevant now.

It’s not so much that they’re pushing guys too fast (Hogan was in the WWF for around a month, albeit his second run, before he won the title) as in they’re stopping and starting pushes.

Again, it comes back to wanting the WWE roster to be a mire of lukewarm sludge, where guys are individually identifiable and marketable, but no-one is truly unique and shining bright, apart from the one or two special guys. The stop/start push thing is a by-product of that, in that WWE will start to push a guy and then assume everyone will see them the same way, because they’ve decided it therefore it’s how it works. Doesn’t matter that a couple weeks ago Erick Rowan was a goof and Fandango was getting attention, this week the announcers will bet how long Fandango will last, with all bets under 3 minutes, because WWE has decided that they’re pushing Rowan now and Fandango sucks.

Now, don’t get me wrong, it’s fine to push guys, and even depush them, but there has to be a transitional time, or at least an explanation. As much as WWE used to harp on about Raw being the longest running episodic tv show they seem to forget that that means they have a history that needs to be acknowledged. Or at least handwaved.

But pushing guys too fast? That’s part of the overall problem, but it’s not the problem as such. It’s the lack of follow up that’s the problem. You can push a guy as fast as you like, you just have to then maintain it.

my second part of the question is, would there be a long term resentment for the star for fast pushes? like look at john cena could he have been pushed too fast and because he was pushed too fast you have allot of fans screaming he sucks? The guys that suppose to be heels fans cheering, the guys to be faces fans booing. Is this a result of them being pushed too fast or a result of a flaw with in their character?

The exact opposite of being pushed too fast, he was pushed too long. The character has improved a bit, but there’s still the residuals of the 3 or so years of just CONSTANT Cena Pushing that was the reason to this day he gets the ‘mixed reaction’. Hell, regardless of how you think of him and his stuff, Max Landis just put up a good explanation of the issue, if you care.

But yeah, the issue with Cena, and Reigns, was not the speed of the push. With Cena, it was the length of his reign, with Reigns, it was just that the push sucked a big fat Cena.

Rahil has a special effects question, and a counting one.

Is some sort of special liquid on wrestlers’ attire to ensure they are not burned in INFERNO matches, and if not what’s the deal?

Yes, or at least that’s how it normally works in stunt work. Each stunt artist will probably have a slightly different way to do it, but usually you wear some fire resistant layers underneath your clothing, and then you coat yourself in a special gel that burns without burning the flesh.

You’ll see in Inferno matches, there’s always a period where you don’t see the person about to be set on fire, and they’re always outside the ring so as to be able to run away quickly. The time not on screen allows them to put the gel on.

What`s the largest battle royal number participation, i have seen 41 on SmackDown (14.11.11), has there been any higher, i know with the size of the ring it`d be hard to get more in ?????

Well, WCW had World War 3, which was a 60 man battle royal, but they cheated by having three rings and 20 men per ring.

But the winner, to my knowledge, is 108 person which took place in Japan, using a Royal Rumble/Aztec Warfare format (over the top rope or pinfall) that took place on New Year’s Eve/Day 2009/10, featuring wrestlers from DDT, BJW and K-DOJO.

But if you want the standard rules, everyone in the ring at once, over the top rope only, one survivor… Then the Smackdown one still doesn’t win, as little known American indy company AWS had a 60 man battle royal once.

So, with that dose of facts, I bring this one to a close. Remember, any mistakes I’ve made here, it’s because I’m sick. Not because I got it wrong.

Hell, let’s say that all the time, why don’t we.