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Ask 411 Wrestling: Has Sting V Undertaker Happened Already?

December 10, 2014 | Posted by Mathew Sforcina

Hello, and welcome to the only wrestling column that guarantees to be CM Punk free this week, Ask 411 Wrestling!

First of all, big, big, BIG props to Ryan Byers for once again stepping into the breach and doing a fantastic job filling in for me as I was off getting hailed on in another state. Dude always knocks it out of the park, and I want to thank him for his hard work. And apologize for the fact that he has to cover Total Divas.

Anyway, I’m back and not quite as grumpy as last week so if you got a question for me, you can send it to [email protected] and it’ll be answered at some point.

And on point, BANNER remains God-Tier.

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! Come on, it’ll only take a few seconds.

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I won’t go over anything from the last couple of weeks, but the one thing I’ll mention from my last column was my list of top ten talkers including The Miz. I put him at tenth since I knew he’d be controversial, but the fact is I genuinely believe he’s one of the most talented guys WWE has right now, in terms of being a WWE Superstar (TM, R, C, Ours Not Yours). Dude has problems maintaining his drive, sure, and I’m the first to admit his run as champ was a failure, but he’s still good at what he does. Heck, he’s not getting nearly enough credit for Mizdow working so well.

But again, my opinion, and thus it can’t be wrong. Just ill informed and stupid.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I come from a large professional wrestling family, with a father, brothers, daughters and sons who are all in professional wrestling. I have wrestled in WWE and held a title in the NWA, but don’t mistake me for somebody who was around the Jim Crockett Promotions era. I also held the heavyweight title in my home promotion for a time, beating a wrestler who in other companies developed a reputation as a coward. Though it is not my primary gimmick, for a time I did adopt a persona based on a famous singer, while one of my sons has a gimmick that sees him act rather light in the loafers. Who am I?

Of course, Maravilloso has got it sorted.

Who am I? I come from a large professional wrestling family, with a father, brothers, daughters and sons who are all in professional wrestling. (THE ALVARADO FAMILY) I have wrestled in WWE (AS A ‘JUNIOR,’ YES, IT WAS TRUE) and held a title in the NWA (IN FACT TWO, AS A TAG TEAM WITH BROTHER BRAZO DE ORO), but don’t mistake me for somebody who was around the Jim Crockett Promotions era. I also held the heavyweight title in my home promotion for a time (CMLL), beating a wrestler who in other companies developed a reputation as a coward (BLACK MAGIC, BETTER KNOWN AS NORMAN SMILEY). Though it is not my primary gimmick, for a time I did adopt a persona based on a famous singer (ELVIS), while one of my sons has a gimmick that sees him act rather light in the loafers (MAXIMO). Who am I?

JOSE ALVARADO, A.K.A. SUPER PORKY OR BRAZO DE PLATA

Oh, and he’s also got this week’s question!

I was born in the Western Hemisphere. I’ve wrestled (and won titles) all over the world, but I’m best remembered for my time in WWE, WCW, ECW and TNA. I’ve made successful teams with former World Champions and Intercontinental Champions, but only won singles championships in one of the four promotions mentioned above. However, I’ve won a singles championship by beating a current member of the Lucha Underground roster and won another without a single wrestling move, then lost it to a current WWE employee. One of my gimmicks was based around a real personal incident. During one of my most memorable runs (for kayfabe and real life reasons) I took two very important things from a former WWE champ and faced the “wrath” of two other WWE champs. My last match in a REAL major wrestling promotion was a win against someone who is an active wrestler and who did something no one else will ever do regarding the “Big 3.” Oh, and contrary to some people might think, I’m not related to any Diva. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

OK, I’m feeling good, time to get back to answering some questions, let’s do this. Ron, get me back into the groove my man!

Looking back at royal rumbles now, which match had the combined number of former and future world champions in one royal rumble? (Counting WWF/E, ECW, AWA, WCW… Ect)

… Ryan, get back here!

Yes, I always make that joke.

Yes, I will probably always make that joke.

Anyway, ok, let’s do this. Let me know if I forget anyone. (Note: ECW Title doesn’t count till Shane Douglas tosses it down, so guys like Snuka aren’t counted, but WWECW does count. Likewise the WCW International Title I’m iffy on, so no Rude. NWA under TNA banner… I’ve left off, but if you want to count Shamrock and R-Truth, up to you. Post NWA does count, just for Mr. Kennedy.)

1988: 3 (Bret Hart, Harley Race, The Ultimate Warrior)

1989: 7 (André the Giant, Mr. Perfect, Ronnie Garvin, Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, Hulk Hogan, Rick Martel)

1990: 9 (Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Dusty Rhodes, André the Giant, The Ultimate Warrior, Rick Martel, Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Mr. Perfect)

1991: 7 (Bret Hart, Rick Martel, The Undertaker, Shane Douglas, Randy Savage, Mr. Perfect, Hulk Hogan)

1992: 9 (Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Randy Savage, Col. Mustafa, Rick Martel, Hulk Hogan, Sgt. Slaughter, Sid Justice)

1993: 8 (Ric Flair, Bob Backlund, Jerry Lawler, Mr. Perfect, The Undertaker, Rick Martel, Yokozuna, Randy Savage)

1994: 10 (Scott Steiner, Diesel, Bob Backlund, Randy Savage, Jeff Jarrett, Bam Bam Bigelow, Shawn Michaels, Lex Luger, Rick Martel, Bret Hart)

1995: 5 (Shawn Michaels, Rick Martel, Lex Luger, Aldo Montoya, Bob Backlund)

1996: 11 (Hunter Hearst Helmsley, Bob Backlund, Jerry Lawler, Dory Funk, Jr., Yokozuna, Vader, Shawn Michaels, Aldo Montoya, Diesel, The Ringmaster, Isaac Yankem, DDS)

1997: 11 (Steve Austin, Hunter Hearst Helmsley, Faarooq, Bret Hart, Jerry Lawler, ‘Diesel’, Terry Funk, Rocky Maivia, Mankind, Vader, The Undertaker)

1998: 9/11 (Cactus Jack/Mankind/Dude Love, Chainsaw Charlie, The Rock, Blackjack Bradshaw, Jeff Jarrett, Mark Henry, Steve Austin, Faarooq, Vader)

1999: 7 (Steve Austin, Mr. McMahon, Edge, Kane, Triple H, Mark Henry, Jeff Jarrett)

2000: 9 (Christian, Edge, Bob Backlund, Chris Jericho, Faarooq, The Rock, Big Show, Bradshaw, Kane)

2001: 11 (Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Faarooq, Kane, Raven, The Rock, Tazz, Bradshaw, Big Show, The Undertaker, Steve Austin)

2002: 15 (Bradshaw, The Undertaker, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Christian, Diamond Dallas Page, Steve Austin, Triple H, Faarooq, Mr. Perfect, Kurt Angle, Big Show, Kane, Rob Van Dam, Booker T)

2003: 17 (Shawn Michaels, Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio, Edge, Christian, Chavo Guerrero, Tommy Dreamer, Rob Van Dam, Matt Hardy, Eddie Guerrero, Jeff Hardy, John Cena, Kane, Booker T, Batista, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker)

2004: 17 (Chris Benoit, Randy Orton, Mark Henry, Bradshaw, Rhyno, Matt Hardy, Scott Steiner, Booker T, Kane, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, Christian, Big Show, Chris Jericho, John Cena, Rob Van Dam, Goldberg)

2005: 13 (Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Edge, Rey Mysterio, Booker T, Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, John Cena, Kane, Batista, Christian, Ric Flair)

2006: 14 (Triple H, Rey Mysterio, Ric Flair, Big Show, Bobby Lashley, Kane, Chris Benoit, Booker T, Johnny Nitro, Rob Van Dam, Chavo Guerrero, Matt Hardy, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton)

2007: 19 (Ric Flair, Matt Hardy, Edge, Tommy Dreamer, Sabu, Kane, CM Punk, King Booker, Jeff Hardy, The Sandman, Randy Orton, Chris Benoit, Rob Van Dam, Johnny Nitro, Shawn Michaels, Chavo Guerrero, The Great Khali, The Miz, The Undertaker)

2008: 15 (The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Great Khali, John Morrison, Tommy Dreamer, Batista, CM Punk, The Miz, Kane, Mick Foley, Mr. Kennedy, Mark Henry, Chavo Guerrero, Triple H, John Cena)

2009: 14 (Rey Mysterio, John Morrison, The Great Khali, Triple H, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, The Miz, The Undertaker, CM Punk, Mark Henry, Kane, Rob Van Dam, Dolph Ziggler, Big Show)

2010: 16 (Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk, The Great Khali, Triple H, John Morrison, Kane, The Miz, Matt Hardy, Shawn Michaels, John Cena, Big Show, Mark Henry, Jack Swagger, Chris Jericho, Edge, Batista)

2011: 18 (CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, John Morrison, Chavo Guerrero, Mark Henry, The Great Khali, Booker T, John Cena, Jack Swagger, King Sheamus, Rey Mysterio, Dolph Ziggler, Diesel, Big Show, Ezekiel Jackson, Alberto Del Rio, Randy Orton, Kane)

2012: 12 (The Miz, Mick Foley, Jerry Lawler, Ezekiel Jackson, The Great Khali, Booker T, Dolph Ziggler, Sheamus, Jack Swagger, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Big Show)

2013: 10 (Dolph Ziggler, Chris Jericho, Sheamus, Rey Mysterio, John Cena, Daniel Bryan, The Great Khali, Kane, Randy Orton, The Miz)

2014: 12 (CM Punk, Kane, Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, Kevin Nash, The Great Khali, Sheamus, The Miz, John “Bradshaw” Layfield, Alberto Del Rio, Batista, Rey Mysterio)

So, with my criteria listed here, 2007 wins with nearly 2 out of every 3 entrants a former or future world champ. But under your criteria, that number might be different. Feel free to share your numbers below if you like.

Kennedy.

Now onto non-counting questions, starting with Evil Jeff and his topical question.

Hi Matt,

got a quick and somewhat topical question for you:

With Sting finally turning up in a WWE ring it got me thinking. Obviously Sting has never wrestled Triple H or The Undertaker before, but has her ever wrestled Tera Ryzing or ‘Mean’ Mark Callous?

Just curious…

Well then.

Terra Rysing debuted in WCW in 1994, although he only lasted under than name for a few months before he became Jean-Paul Lévesque. So let’s check out both names, shall we, using the ever reliable and awesome historyofwwe.com site…

Terra never got anywhere near Sting level, highest he got was challenging for the TV title.

Jean-Paul, on the other hand, did interact with Sting in a brawl at least once in 1994…

But he lasted all of a month or so into 1995 with WCW, so that’d be a no.

Mean Mark was in WCW during 1990, so maybe he faced off with Sting?

… Holy shit he did.

NWA @ Fayetteville, NC – Cumberland County Civic Center – August 30, 1990

NWA World Champion Sting & NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated Mark Callous & Moondog Rex (sub. for Barry Windham & Sid Vicious)

NWA @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – September 1, 1990

NWA World Champion Sting pinned Mark Callous (sub. for Barry Windham)

However, neither of these were taped events, and according to the site, the following day, Sting wrestled Harley Race as the Sting/Callous match the night before was so bad. So even if video exists, maybe you don’t want to see it. It was after he’d given notice to the company, so…

But yeah, Sting V Undertaker has happened once before. Untelevised. And it sucked, apparently.

Bit of a backlog here, so let’s focus on Maffew’s stuff this week.

I think 7:40-10:30 of the Khali video made me laugh more than anything in the past several months…

Ron Gamble gets special treatment because of course he does.

1. I could not watch any wrestling during the summer of 1989, so I missed most of the best year of the NWA, and I also missed the end of WCCW. I recently watched a series of videos online showing the end, leading to the Eric Embry/P. Y. Chu-Hi match. Before that, though, matchmaker Frank Dusek was fired by the “new owners of WCCW.” Afterward, when I was able to watch again, I remember hearing Mark Lowrance talk about how USWA officials had not hired Frank Dusek back. What ever happened with that? Was Dusek ever hired back?

OK, so going into the history of Jerry Jarrett, the Von Erichs and the AWA/CWA/WCCW coming together and falling apart would take forever, so here’s the short version: In 1988, Jerry Jarrett ended up with a controlling share in the promotion that was at that point known as World Class Championship Wrestling, his 60% larger than Kerry and Kevin Von Erich’s 20% each, after the company almost went under due to not paying its creditors. As boss, he altered the TV taping schedule to make the shows more financially viable, and brought in Eric Embry as booker. Eric quickly made himself the star and began a Wholesome Texans V Evil Tennesseans feud, using wrestlers from Jarrett’s other promotion, CWA in Memphis.

The two companies then began to work more and more together, with wrestlers moving between the two regularly, thus keeping everyone fresh. And despite booking around yourself is normally seen as a bad thing, and despite Embry burying the Von Erichs, Embry as the star worked, as WCCW began to pick up steam again. He got called out for some of his angles, and the self-promotion, but it was getting over.

However, the Von Erichs, in the lead up to their pulling out completely over money, demanded Jarrett stop using the WCCW name. So, he had to come up with a new one. And thus he brought in the United States Wrestling Association, the governing body that oversaw both CWA and WCCW. Now at the time, WCCW had as matchmaker Frank Dusek, who despite working as a heel for most of his in ring career, was a fair and balanced face authority figure, (although he was a little too present for some old school fans). But after he reinstated Eric Embry, he was suspended as the USWA hadn’t authorised this. When the suspension was lifted and he tried to suspend heel ref Harold Harris for being a heel ref, he got beat up by Skandor Akbar and his troops.

Tojo Yamamoto, a longstanding Memphis wrestler, was brought in as WCCW President, and he refused to take any action against the heels. This established that anyone in WCCW with power was corrupt, other than Dusek. Yamamoto would attack Dusek and this led to the heels supporting WCCW and the faces supporting USWA.

It all came to a head, and of course Embry won the big cage match at the end, and won control of the company, and thus ‘killed’ WCCW, and USWA became the name of the company.

And then… I couldn’t find a storyline justification for Dusek not being rehired as matchmaker. Heck, dude was commentating at that point, and after the switch he was replaced with Percy Pringle. Nor could I find an actual shoot reason.

So yeah, all that history for a shrug answer. But maybe someone below remembers this, or just knows why. Do please let me know…

2. In December in the US, it is all about the 25th. Some radio stations even start playing Christmas music on November 1, and keep going until December 26. But we’re in late fall/early winter here Up Over. Where you are, Down Under, you’re in late spring/early summer, where lyrics like “Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nipping at your nose” don’t seem to fit. Do you hear the same winter-centric songs we do, or are there summer related Christmas songs for Australia?

There are a couple of jokey Australia Xmas songs, but for the most part you tend to hear the non-weather focused songs, but yes, we do get all the winter songs, and snow and such are used as decorations for the season.

But if you want an Aussie Xmas song…

Ace has two simple questions.

Was wondering what was the last match that Gordon Solie did commentary on in WCW?

Back to historyofwwe.com then…

His final show was WCW Pro, the July 1st, 1995 edition. He announced his retirement during the show, and then the final match was Meng vs. Julio Sanchez. Not exactly a spectacular finish, but there you have it.

Also, what was the last match that JR did commentary on in WWE?

To my knowledge, it was on the 20th Anniversary Raw, January 14, 2013. Ross called the main event, where Dolph Ziggler fought John Cena in a cage match.

But as you can hear there, Ross was able to tell stories, call the match, show enthusiasm and get you excited in the match. So obviously he had to be let go.

Captain Greatness had better ask a hell of a question to live up to that name.

Hello kind sir,

With the recurring appearances of Jamie Noble/Joey Mercury as the new stooges, it got me thinking about WWEs road agents. couple of questions

1) How come the WWE rarely keeps any of their top guys around once they are finished up on TV?
The agents are generally old midcarders, rarely main eventers (apart from HHH). The only ones I usually hear about are Michael Hayes, Arn and Malenko . You would think that an Austin, Foley, HBK, Bret, hell even Taker would be a great addition to the backstage team. Any particular reason for this? or is it just money?

I’m fairly sure that WWE would kill to have guys like Austin, Foley and such as road agents. But even without having to take bumps and wrestle, working for WWE is a tough gig, with all the travelling, being away from home for most of the year, having to stay in hotels all the time. Now imagine doing that in your late 40’s/50’s, after a couple decades of wrestling, especially wrestling as a main eventer and having to wrestle long, tough matches all the time. And, add in that, probably, you’re already finically set for life, so you don’t have to do it. You gonna take that up?

Now I’m not trying to claim that all old timers are beaten up and selfish, most everyone who’s a legend in WWE has, at some point, gone to the Performance Center and given talks or classes or something. It’s just a weekly grind backstage doesn’t really appeal to a guy like Austin, who has TV roles and enough money to drown his ranch in Steveweisers if he wanted to.

and 2) what do the agents do exactly? If there is a staff of writers and Vince having the final say, what is the purpose of these guys in this day and age?

Cheers, mate!

Road Agents, or Producers as WWE calls them, are basically the middle managers of wrestling. The scripts come down from the writers/Vince, and if you’ve ever seen one of the leaked ones, you’ll notice that although the promos are pretty detailed, the matches have no meat to them, just a Producers’ name.

The producers are the ones who take what the writers want and help the wrestlers work out how to do it.

Like, say I’m the agent for a 3 minute match between Green Goose-Shit and Coaster Midcarder. All I’m given is make Green look good but Coaster goes over and then cuts his 75 line promo afterwards. So, I’d meet with the guys and work with them to explain how to do that, with Coaster arrogantly slapping Green about at the start, then Green nails all the good looking moves he knows, then come up with the finish, the low blow to stop the Goose Step Kick and then the Minimum Effort neckbreaker and then the pin and Coaster then cuts his promo.

The writers tell the agents what they want, the agents get it done. It’s like officers and sergeants in the armed forces. The officers know why and when something should be done, the sergeants know how to do that thing. Officers give the orders, sergeants get those orders carried out.

Of course, in smaller companies, often the booker or other wrestlers will act as road agents. I often help with inexperienced female wrestlers’ matches because I’m a perv I wrestle like a young girl I’m helpful like that.

Another quick question, this one from Adrian from Ireland

Another quick question. Who was the guy who portrayed Bore-us Malenko is the WCW match with Chris Jericho?

Well it took a little digging, but it turns out he is Johnny Boone, who was normally a referee for WCW. He did occasional work as a jobber, although he did pin Disco Inferno one time, and he was involved in the Evan Karagias/Madusa angle, if you remember that.

If so, my condolences.

Anyway, that’s who it was. No-one secretly famous or anything.

Jon thinks WWE might well being brilliant.

Hey Mathew. Thanks for all the great responses in the past. Ready for another?

So, last year leading into WM, WWE’s basic gameplan was “Batista is now your hero- cheer for him” and the fans, due in no small part to Daniel Bryan, revolted.

My question is aren’t they now setting up for exactly the same thing with Roman Reigns? Think about it: you’ve got the lousy vignettes in place of what should instead be a surprise return, you’ve got someone the fans legitimately do want to see in Dean Ambrose, and you will likely see the whole thing start at the Rumble. Same setup, right? So what am I missing? Is this a totally different thing for reasons that escape me or does the WWE really have no clue that they’re in danger of repeating very recent history? Or, the wildcard- is it possible that they are doing it intelligently HOPING for a repeat of the Bryan/Batista scenario?

Thanks!

Hanlon’s razor states that you should ‘never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.’

It’s different in WWE’s eyes because Batista was just poor timing, if he’d come back after the movie had come out everything would have been fine. But more importantly, OK, MAYBE Vince was not totally 100% right in thinking DAVE V Orton was going to be the major money making drawcard for WM. But they totally know Roman’s the guy, they’ve spent a couple years building him up, protecting him, and he’s totally over because he’s a badass and the future of the industry, and it has nothing to do with how they’ve protected him and booked him so strong. Totally.

Look, I get why people want to think like this. The idea that WWE is manipulating us, is playing a clever game and wants to really give us what we want is an appealing notion. But alas, the vast majority of the time, what you see is what they want to give you. WWE wanted Smilin’ Rocky Maivia to become a star as Smilin’ Rocky Maivia. They expected the Ringmaster to work as a solid midcard hand, no more, no less.

WWE to my knowledge has only ever pulled the ‘We want you to actually hate this babyface’ card twice, the first with Randy Orton (which got derailed with the shoulder injury and thus the RNN thing just sped it along) and the second with Mohammed Hassan, albeit for a week before they gave up on it. Maybe three with Bo Dallas but I don’t treat NXT as the same as WWE in terms of booking.

WWE will, unless he wins the lottery or is suddenly cast as Shazam or something wonderful and not at all negative happening to Roman and thus being unable to work the Rumble/WM, have Reigns win the Rumble and win the belt at WM.

Will it bomb? I don’t think it’ll be anywhere near as bad as Batista, at least I don’t think so now. I know in the past I’ve warned of the backlash, and there will be something of that, but Roman I suspect will get an ok reaction for winning the Rumble, and an ok reaction when he beats Brock at WM.

Nowhere near the reaction he should be getting for his new position, and it won’t work afterwards I suspect, but it won’t be anywhere neat Bryan/DAVE levels. And it’s certainly not a deliberate ploy by WWE. They’re neither that stupid or that clever.

Speaking of Wrestlemania, Brandon?

I was watching some of the DX/Rated-RKO feud, and something I pondered. It’s known that Triple H was suppose to have a rematch with John Cena at WrestleMania 23, but HHH tore his quad. My question is, had HHH not torn his quad, any idea on how DX was to be handled going into Mania? Would DX have broken up before WrestleMania 23? Would they have stayed together as HHH fought Cena & HBK fought whoever at WrestleMania and broken up later on?

As we all know by now, the original plan was to do Cena/HHH 2: The Quest For More Money. The other side of that coin was that Shawn was originally going to face off with King Booker, something they’ve both mentioned in passing, I believe. And it was probably going to be the Billionaires match, with Shawn representing Trump and Booker as Vince’s guy.

As for DX, the plan, as I understand it, was that they’d quietly split in the build. Perchance Hunter would take umbrage at Shawn hanging out with Trump and not helping him train, while Shawn would resent Hunter chasing the title instead of helping him humiliate Vince. That was the plan before the injury, afterwards they decided to keep them together in order to head towards the Cena V DX feud we never really got outside the one PPV.

And on that note, I draw this edition of Ask 411 Wrestling to a close, and I’m out of here before I have to talk about CM Punk in UFC. I mean, everyone has gone on and on about it and really, at the end of the day, it’s just CM Punk scratching an itch for a lot of money and you can’t blame him for that. Sure, as a wrestling fan, I dislike not seeing him in the ring, but if he truly hates wrestling as much as he says he does, I’d rather he go off and do something he likes rather than wrestle and…

DAMMIT!

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  • James Mack

    So the wwecw title wins count as a world’a title, but the international wored heavyweight title doesn’t? I would say the latter was more treated like a world’a title than the former

  • Alex Crowder

    You’re not the only one to like Miz. I think Miz even now is great on the mic. I only wish he was as good in the ring as he is on the mic! I don’t think he’s the worst in the ring, but he is a little bland. I cannot remember any of his matches off the top of my head. In contrast, I do remember his promos.

    • Mister Thirteen

      I like Miz as well. I think (as is often the case) he got unfairly buried by Cena (and The Rock) when he was pretty over as a heel.

      That “I Quit” match – The Passion of the Cena – was mental. They made him look weak as fuck in the end.

      • dennett316

        Agreed. I think the guy did really well during his title run considering the ultimate goal of it all was to build to Rock vs Cena. He did very well for them in public appearances, he stepped things up promo wise and even when he was thrown into a feud with Lawler of all people, he was pretty damn good and made it work.
        I do agree that, at times, his ring work has let him down. But I wouldn’t say he was ever outright terrible.

      • Scubalot .

        I have to concur, that match alone was AWFUL…

        I am actually a big fan of Miz, have been for some time, but that match was just so stupendously horrible. Miz & Alex Riley double teaming Cena for 20+ minutes, smashing him with foreign objects and whipping him etc etc, and Cena powers through it all. Then Cena puts ONE move on Miz after getting beat for who knows how long, and Miz gives up within 10 seconds or less. I remember swearing off WWE for some time because of that horrendously booked match. I just don’t understand the mentality of destroying your own talent base just for one guy over and over. The SAME thing with Barrett, when Cena literally buried him under 100 chairs. That destroyed the Nexus, and ANY money they could have made (and Nexus shirts were quite predominant at that time) for what????

    • Erh

      Think what he’s been doing right now is exactly what he’s best at, his earlier heel shtick suffered alot when they tried to sell him as a more serious threat and he was scowling and roaring at people. Like, no, I’m not buying that from the Miz, sorry.

    • Michael L

      Miz is pretty decent as long as you don’t put him in the main event scene. His character works perfectly as either a tag wrestler or IC/US title material. Once he is in the main event, his character gets exposed as repetitive, without the in-ring skills to back him up. To this date, I have not seen a match that says that Miz is a “must see” wrestler.

    • JP

      I always found Miz to be quite engaging and on point during his reign when he was on the talk show circuit. I remember seeing him on Conan and saying wow this is really great.

  • Shane McMahon’s Butler

    For nostalgia they should do blonde surfer Sting vs Terra Ryzing vs Mean Mark Calloway at WM 31.

  • The Marvin

    You are Carl Ouellette, from the quebeckers

  • Scott

    “NWA World Champion Sting & NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated Mark Callous & Moondog Rex (sub. for Barry Windham & Sid Vicious)”

    THAT is a lopsided match

  • DarthDaver

    I was born in the Western Hemisphere. (Canada) I’ve wrestled (and won titles) all over the world, but I’m best remembered for my time in WWE, WCW, ECW and TNA. I’ve made successful teams with former World Champions (Rhino) and Intercontinental Champions (Jacques “The Mountie” Rougeau), but only won singles championships in one of the four promotions mentioned above (WCW Hardcore). However, I’ve won a singles championship by beating a current member of the Lucha Underground roster (IWA Intercontinental Title from Ricky Banderas/ Mil Muertes)and won another without a single wrestling move (WCW Hardcore was given by Lance Storm), then lost it to a current WWE employee (Norman Smiley). One of my gimmicks was based around a real personal incident (Wore an eyepatch as a pirate, has a real glass eye). During one of my most memorable runs (for kayfabe and real life reasons) I took two very important things from a former WWE champ (Sunglasses and Leather Jacket from Bret Hart) and faced the “wrath” of two other WWE champs (Shawn Michaels and Diesel). My last match in a REAL major wrestling promotion was a win against someone who is an active wrestler and who did something no one else will ever do regarding the “Big 3.”(Can’t figure this one out…) Oh, and contrary to some people might think, I’m not related to any Diva (Maryse Ouellet). Who am I? (Carl Ouellet)

    • El Atomico

      wow, other than a few tag matches with Jacques, I don’t even remember him in WCW, Good work!

      • DarthDaver

        To be honest, I couldn’t remember most of that stuff, it was the “not related to a diva” part that made me think of him, then just a matter of fitting everything else in.

        • Michael James Carlotta Jr.

          the only Last match he won that i could find was him beating Don Harris. Not sure what they did regarding the big 3

    • rk349097

      The “Big 3” reference is probably to him working in WWE, ECW and WCW in the same calendar year, which Ouelett did in 2000. I’m not sure if anyone else can claim that.

      • DarthDaver

        I dunno, didn’t Rick Rude appear in all 3 within the space of a week?

        • jimhellwig

          Nah, but he was in all 3 promotions in same year too, although he didn’t wrestle like Oullette did. Appeared in ECW in early 97, he then joined the WWF in August and then WCW in November when he was on Nitro AND Raw on the same day, in the same timeslot, (as Raw was taped and Nitro was live). It’s incredible when you think about him being on 2 TV programmes at exactly the same air time! He deserves a Hall of Fame induction for that alone, lol.

  • Jimmy Jett

    For the ‘We want you to actually hate this babyface’ I’d consider Angle’s debut and initial run to fall into that category. Granted, similar to Hassan, you’re pretty much bound to start blatantly cheating and/or cutting promos talking down to the audience as they feel the need to toss away any subtle nuances and keep it dumbed down.

  • Ice Dagger

    JR did commentary in Full Sail NXT for a while, too, if that counts.

    Also: the Royal Rumble is in Philly so that crowd is going to crucify Reigns.

    • Mister Thirteen

      Yeah, I was thinking that as well – no way that crowd’s going to be kind to Roman.

    • Hectus

      I’d prefer WWE to push babyfaces who organically connect with the crowds (Ziggler, Swing Cesaro, Daniel Bryan, Dean Ambrose etc) rather than them shoving those who fit the mythical “Mold” down our throats.

      • Scott

        Yes please, forcing people to accept guys as opposed to capitalising on people the fans get behind just seems hugely counter-productive

        • Hectus

          Damien Sandow is a recent example of how WWE capitalized on a wrestler the crowd naturally got behind. Sandow has gotten ample TV time and opportunities to showcase himself properly, which has been good for Sandow and fun for the fans.

          • Scott

            Which I sincerely hope continues however as a joke character I think he’s ‘safer’ to get behind

        • Ryan Bias

          Except the promotion picking guys to push is really how wrestling has worked for the last 100 years.

          • Scott

            kind of like unscripted promos and guys calling matches on the fly without producers, etc?

          • Ryan Bias

            The difference is that scripted promos and pre-planned matches are new developments, so I can understand fans complaining about them to a degree because they’re not the norm.

            However, the mentality of “we the fans should be able to dictate who is pushed” is completely new. Promotions have always picked new stars and convinced fans to like them, not the other way around. That’s why I’m a bit surprised when fans are appalled that a promotion would try to pick a guy and book him in such a way that he would become a star, because that’s what promotions have always done . . . the promote people. It’s like walking outside during a rain storm and getting pissed off because the rain has somehow gotten you wet.

          • Scott

            I think part of it is probably related to Vince gushing over the Attitude era on the Austin podcast while ignoring the fact that’s part of how they’re actively preventing that sort of thing from happening again.

          • Elvis Foley

            I agree with you that “the mentality of “we the fans should be able to dictate who is pushed” is completely new.”
            However, hasn’t WWE sort of created this issue for themselves?
            WWE, and Vince himself, have gone out of their way for YEARS telling the audience to cheer for their favourites because they are the “WWE UNIVERSE”, dammit!
            It started with Rock and Austin etc. when they saw the organic change and allowed it to happen. The audience dictated what they wanted, WWE listened. The audience got what they wanted, kept cheering for whomever they wanted, WWE kept listening and, in fact, promoted it and it became the “WWE Universe”, making the audience a part of the game. Hell, even Cena was born out of that mentality. His rapping got over with the audience and they started to cheer him as a heel; and then WWE got behind him.
            Then, when they turned him face – because I guess they truly didn’t understand who was cheering him* and why, and just wanted to sell merch to the kiddies – he became “SuperCena”, effectively ruining why he was over in the first place but making him because, again, they started dictating to the fans what to like, and the older fans turned on Cena.
            They can’t have it both ways – they can’t change the rules and then get pissed off when the audience follows suit. Either trust your audience to make their stars or don’t; don’t waffle on it.
            Sure, it’s not a complete ‘either / or’ situation – there will still be some stars they can / have to make themselves, but when the audience decides to latch on to someone, WWE needs to be able to put both their initial plans, and egos aside and run with it. It’s not the audiences’ fault if WWE can’t adapt their stories to fit this situation. They should always have a Plan B and C at the ready.

            Sorry for the long winded comment – I just don’t think that it’s as simple as you say.

            * I know the real reason they turned Cena and toned him down was the return of PG and his ability to make them sh!t tons of cash with the kids, thus appeasing the board/shareholders etc.

      • save_us_DaJ

        It’s interesting how the issues that people have with pushing people has evolved in this way. It used to be that the audience were just desperate to have anybody new rather than Cena & recycling of part timers (see how people eventually got behind Roman at the last Rumble). But now it’s turned into people just refusing to back whoever WWE chooses to back because there’s always someone more deserving lower down the card not getting their due.

        • Robert Stewart

          I think it’s still the Cena effect. I think people are looking at Reigns and thinking “This is it. This is Cena 2.0”. So people are lambasting him before WWE has even done anything with him because the only thing worse than Cena is the idea of the guy who’s going to be the Next Cena for a decade+.

        • That’s exactly what I think as well. Which is why if they acknowledge this then their “uber face” pick could actually be a massively successful heel against someone like Ziggler, Cesaro, or Bryan as the fan chosen face.

        • Burning Hammer Valentine

          WWE has driven their own fans to that point. And they’ve proved even when their paying fans get behind a superstar, they still don’t give a fuck and push who they want anyway. What happened with Daniel Bryan before the fallout from the Royal Rumble was unbelievable.

      • Kirk Angel

        What’s mind boggling is that they openly acknowledge the initial manufactured personas of Rock and Austin were not successful and it was only after the chacter change that they connected organically and became huge stars. That’s the model to replicate if you want to legitimately create new stars and try and find the person who’s going to create the next boom. Instead they insist on replicating the “Lex Luger Made in the USA approach” of telling us who the new guy is, all the while Vince is saying “the fans decide”. If the backlash hadn’t already started against Reigns then the events of Monday will change that, and the Philly crowd will sh1t all over the Rumble!

        • Hectus

          Right! Wikipedia says this about The Rock in his Rocky Maivia phase ………..
          1 : “Was pushed heavily from the start despite his wrestling inexperience”
          2 : “Though pushed as a face, audiences generally disliked Maivia”

          Hmm ………………

        • CK

          Exactly. Just watched Monday Night War with the Rock and they speak of what a mistake they made with Rocky Mavia push and the successful result of giving in and letting The Rock evolve naturally. Maybe WWE should go back and watch some of their own historical footage and learn a thing or two.

  • Robert Stewart

    The IWC is so fickle. Last year, after Punk was eliminated, the fans went FULL-BORE pro-Reigns in the Rumble. This year, it’s “Oh, we hate that guy”. Now, I’m no Reigns fan, and I’m happy to see his former Shield brethren doing [at least] as well as he is, but it seems like this smark turn on Reigns happened ridiculously fast.

    • Hectus

      Did you forget that there was no DB in that rumble and that the crowd was Anti-Batista? Anyway, that was in his Shield days.

      Since then Reigns has been exposed to be a relatively weak singles performer, outperformed by others especially his shield brothers and still has had a rocket strapped to his back. Maybe the IWC doesn’t want another superman babyface who is nearly guaranteed to win every match.

      • Robert Stewart

        I actually mention JUST THAT in the comment chain above. It seems like things are being held against Reigns that haven’t even happened yet.

        And yeah, I remember the Rumble, and there were a lot of mitigating factors, but that doesn’t change the fact that the fans were all about him that night.

        • DarthDaver

          They were only “all about him” when it was down to him and Boootista.

    • Zeus

      As others have said, it wasn’t that they/we were pro-Reigns, we were pro-anything but Batista, and once it came down to boring Dave and boring Roman, most of us sided with the underdog/young blood who was still aligned with some pretty damn entertaining wrestlers with pretty damn good personalities.

  • I’m excited to see what happens with reigns. Of course many don’t want a Cena 2.0 but we don’t know for sure that is what they will go with. Personally my hope is that he wins the rumble and title at mania but actually looks good doing it (memorable and entertaining performances). Let the IWC bitch, let the “adults” in the audience boo. At least unlike Cena he can be a face or heel champ, thus as long as they “listen to the crowd” it can turn out alright. A nice heel turn and feud with Bryan post Mania could be really fun.

    Speaking of main event guys…
    What makes me sad is that they made Ziggler a big deal last month, now it’s back to the same shit. I’m not his biggest fan but he impressed me at Survivor Series. Why can’t he have a main event match this month against Rollins? Go the good old grudge match route. Basic motivation of revenge for last month for Rollins and for Ziggler it would be about proving the win wasn’t a fluke. Not only that I think ziggler could be a good pick to take Lesnar on at the rumble.

    People generally watch the Rumble because of the rumble match itself. Because of that it’s the best PPV to toss in experimental main events. It could be built around heyman/Lesnar wanting to shut down this rising star the fans are becoming attached to meanwhile Ziggler is gong to try to put over his wrestling pedigree and being a legit contender at a main event level.

    Sorry, I typed too much. Let’s just keep Cena in there a few more years instead…

  • Jonfw2

    The Reigns question was mine, so let me clarify a little on what I now look at as fairly poorly worded: it’s not that I definitively think WWE has a “master plan” to turn people against Reigns by virtue of this looking so similar to last year; it’s more that I personally can’t believe they don’t see the similarities lining up.

    And I don’t think anyone hates Reigns any more than they hated Batista- it’s the being told what to think and whom to cheer for that they hate.

    • McThulhu

      All that aside, Reigns has been out of action, doing absolutely nothing, so he deserves nothing.

      • Jonfw2

        Absolutely. I’m still not convinced he won’t get the Batista treatment if he wins the Rumble. Especially if someone like Dolph or Ambrose (or even Rollins) is around until near the end.

    • Zeus

      I don’t think WWE is smart enough to choreograph that, ha ha.

  • The Phenom

    Sting vs. Undertaker has never happened. Taped or untaped. Sting vs. “Mean” Mark Callous may have happened, but The Icon vs. The Phenom is still pending.

  • RingOtaku

    The biggest difference between Batista and Reigns that people like to forget is that Batista was returning after years off and did so with everyone knowing he’d be leaving after a few months to go promote his movie and most likely reap the Hollywood benefits of being in a big movie (which did happen). This combined with the DB-Mania resulted in most of the backlash: Fans didn’t want to see ANYONE challenge for the title at WM except Bryan (remember Rey’s not-quite cheered entrance?) and the fact it was someone who wouldn’t stay long enough to have a notable reign only compounded this.

    Ambrose is not at DB level of over yet. I love the guy but he’s not. He can get there and probably will if WWE doesn’t cut his feet out from under him. More importantly Reigns will be coming back after several months off for an injury not leaving the company for years to do anything but wrestle. Reigns is still seen as a young talent who wants to go full-time because he wants to wrestle. Unlike Batista who wanted a couple big payoff dates and to test the waters if GotG had bombed.

    It really isn’t the same situation folks. Sorry.

  • HBJ The Showslopper

    Rick Martel for HOF

  • MikeK.

    NWA @ Fayetteville, NC – Cumberland County Civic Center – August 30, 1990 NWA World Champion Sting & NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated Mark Callous & Moondog Rex (sub. for Barry Windham & Sid Vicious)
    Wonder how many fans in attendance were thrilled for that substitution? Moondog Rex? NWA had no one else on their roster they couldve substituted for what Im assuming was their scheduled main event?

  • Gran Pudú

    Hey, you forgot Kurt Angle in the “We want you to actually hate this babyface” card list

  • APinOz

    Batista’s unpopularity was directly a result of Daniel Bryan’s INSANE level of popularity. I don’t see such a divide with Reigns and Ambrose. Sure, Ambrose is over, but not nearly to the level that DB is/was. I’d say if the WWE bring back Reigns and DB at the same time they’ll potentially have the same problem, which is why I don’t think we’ll see DB till after Wrestlemania, even if he is healthy.

    • Dave

      I think Batista got the shaft by the WWE, they put him in a no win situation and they were too blind to see it. They let people think that Bryan would be in the Rumble, they did nothing to dissuade that belief and then not only is Bryan not in the Rumble, Batista is given the win, a part timer out of no where. The crowd sees Bryan get the shaft while a friend of Triple H is given the win. How did they not see how bad that would look and how angry the crowed would get?

  • Dave

    Not to be rude, but if people can’t see the difference between Batista returning after YEARS away to win the Royal Rumble while Daniel Bryan wasn’t even allowed in it, compared to Reigns who was injured when he was hot returning to win the Rumble then you must be clueless. Because then you must think booing someone from quitting for over 4 years is the same as booing someone coming off a serious injury as the same thing. Then you’re nuts.

    For those of you who think the Philly fans will shit all over him winning the Rumble then you are in for a rude awakening.

    The two situations are a billion times different.

  • jimhellwig

    Recognising an old friend in the crowd on Botchamania is pretty cool.