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411 Fact or Fiction Wrestling: Are We Excited For Joe vs. Lesnar?
Image Credit: WWE
Welcome back to the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction, Wrestling Edition! Stuff happened, people loved/hated it and let everyone else know. I pick through the interesting/not so interesting tidbits and then make 411 staff members discuss them for your pleasure. Battling this week are 411’s Steve Cook and Greg DeMarco!
1. You are excited for Samoa Joe vs. Brock Lesnar.
Steve Cook: FACT – For wrestling fans that follow multiple promotions, it’s fun to think about the top stars of those companies facing each other and what would happen. Samoa Joe was Ring of Honor’s top guy in 2004 & 2005, and was one of TNA’s top guys for most of his run there. ROH fans & TNA fans boosting their company online and with other fans in person would trumpet Samoa Joe as one of the best guys in wrestling and somebody that would hold his own against anybody that WWE had to offer. Joe himself has always been portrayed as a tough guy. One of TNA’s best builds for a match ever was the MMA-style build to a match with Joe & Kurt Angle at Lockdown 2008. Some people say he’s too fat or whatever, but all Joe does is beat people up. You believe he can do that. Brock Lesnar’s credentials speak for themselves. His status as an NCAA wrestling champion & a former UFC heavyweight champion ensures his legitimacy. Joe has never faced somebody with the combination of legitimacy, size & brute strength that Lesnar has. What’s going to happen? This stuff writes itself. WWE really doesn’t need to do anything for the next month other than have Brock show up. Get Joe & Lesnar on camera and let them do their thing. Don’t get in the way. It’ll be good. Joe vs. Lesnar is one of those matches that people watching Joe tear through ROH back in the day never thought they would get to see. You can’t help but be excited about that.
Greg DeMarco: FACT – How can you not be? This is perfect booking by the WWE, which means no one will give them credit for it. What kind of fan are you? For hardcore fans this is a dream match. They’re familiar with Samoa Joe’s 22-month run as ROH Champion that established his career and the promotion as a whole. Others know his feud with Kurt Angle in TNA, and still others have fond memories of Joe in NXT as a multiple time champion and adversary to both Finn Balor and Shinsuke Nakamura. UFC fans see a former heavyweight champion who is about to go toe-to-toe with a man pushed as a fighter on the same level. Casual fans who only know Joe since his main roster debut in the winter know Joe as a badass who takes no prisoners and has basically pounded most of his opposition into submission. This match sells. “But Joe is just gonna be fed to The Beast!” Eh, I don’t think it goes down like that. I’m not saying Samoa Joe wins at GBOF, but I’m confident he’ll give Brock a run no one outside of Goldberg has since WrestleMania 32. Plus if you need proof that WWE is taking Joe seriously as a contender, look at what he did to Paul Heyman on Raw. Only the biggest of threats to Brock Lesnar get to manhandle Heyman. Joe is the real deal. So be excited, this truly is a dream match and one that we may see more than once.
2. WWE’s booking of Bayley on the main roster has simply been bad.
Steve Cook: FACT – It’s been kind of sad to see the likeable things about Bayley disappear the longer she’s been on WWE television, but it doesn’t really come as surprising. It’s only natural that Bayley would stop being the star-struck girl that everybody loved on NXT with the more success she attained. She’s growing up. As people who have had kids tell me, kids get pretty damn annoying while they grow up. The Bayley character is growing up before our eyes. She was bound to get annoying at some point. Where the booking has failed her is hitting all the wrong notes at the wrong time. Having Bayley win the Raw Women’s Championship on Raw and end Charlotte’s PPV streak at Fastlane instead of doing both at WrestleMania, which would have maximized the impact. Having Sasha Banks mostly be responsible for those victories due to interference and distractions went against what Bayley’s character was about, and it hasn’t led to any problems between the two. Losing the Women’s Championship to Alexa Bliss was fine, but the whole Extreme Rules build and the match didn’t do her any favors at all. I’m not going to go as far as some people who idolized Bayley in NXT have and say she needs to be taken off of television and go far far away, but there’s definitely something wrong with the character & the situation right now. Somebody needs to figure out who Bayley is and go from there. Is she a happy-go-lucky girl designed to appeal to young audiences? Or is she a typical WWE babyface that’s a jerk to everybody? Can she beat people up with kendo sticks? Does she have a conscience? We need to find out the answers here.
Greg DeMarco: FICTION – No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The problem with Bayley isn’t the writing–it’s Bayley. Her character, promo (in)ability, and basically everything about her works on a smaller scale. It was perfect for NXT. It’s perfect for a lower card program. Coming to Raw has exposed Bayley. She hasn’t shown she has what’s needed to excel on the grand stage. This doesn’t mean I’m not a fan of the performer–I am. She’s fun. She has in ring talent. But once the other Horsewomen left NXT she became fodder for Asuka. For the NXT women, Charlotte was the Queen, Sasha was the Boss and Asuka is the Ruler. Bayley was the placeholder and it’s showing on Raw. Sadly, no writing was going to prevent this from happening.
3. It’s rumored that WWE will fill the 32-woman field for the Mae Young Classic with at least 10 developmental talents that aren’t part of the regular NXT programming; you think that this is a good plan.
Steve Cook: FACT – The success of the plan will depend on one simple question: who are these developmental talents? WWE’s been signing women at a pretty rapid rate lately and it’s tough for everybody except the most plugged in to keep track of it all. If WWE’s plan was to send people out there with barely any training, that would be the worst plan. But I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt here and assume that these spots would to talent in developmental right now that’s transitioning to the WWE way of things and waiting for the right opportunity to debut on television. The Mae Young Classic could be a great way to introduce future talent that would make their way to NXT as soon as possible. This style of introduction worked for Tyler Bate & Pete Dunne, as their performances in the UK tournament were well received by the fans that attend NXT tapings and they were welcomed with open arms right away. This seems logical to me.
Greg DeMarco: FACT – Why not? The MYC isn’t there to only showcase international talent from outside the company. It’s a WWE production and whatever they make of it. The Cruiserweight Classic led to a championship, a brand and spots on Raw. The United Kingdom Championship was treated differently. So was the Dusty Rhodes Classic. Here’s what I will say: it will have a purpose. They likely have a handful of talents in mind, both from inside and outside of developmental, that they want to focus on. They’re testing the Netflix “binge-watch” strategy by dropping more than one episode at a time. You’ll see new signees, future signees and even some who’ll never sign. Former TNA Knockouts could be in it. I’d worry more about enjoying it than anything else. Watch out for Mia Yim/TNA’s Jade and Toni Storm–they could make an immediate impact after this tournament (if they’re in it).
SWITCH!
4. The WWE UK Series will be a bigger success than 205 Live.
Greg DeMarco: FICTION – It COULD be, I’m not 100% sure it WILL be. I need to reveal one bit of info you may not know: the WWE United Kingdom Championship Tournament reminded me how perfect the WWE can be. It was amazing. I loved each of the 16 matches on the broadcast. The right things were different and the right things were the same. I think that’s what happens when William Regal and Triple H are in charge. The recent special they released? Sucked. It was some small studio and one match featured 205 Love talent. Not what we needed. We need the Empress Ballroom, the hot crowd and the unique vibe. The white ropes and generic yellow logo? Leave that shit at home. The UK Division and show have great potential when done right. The tournament was done right. A bi-weekly show can be done right. The talent is amazing and it’s plentiful. You already have built in stories. But they have to keep it simple and let the right people lead the charge. If they do this, It’s gold. But that’s a big “if.”
Steve Cook: FACT – 205 Live’s weakness comes down to two main factors in my view. First of all, taping after SmackDown Live just doesn’t work. The crowd is already burned out from one live television show with the wrestlers that they actually bought tickets (or won tickets, or whatever) to see. A bunch of new guys coming out right after the main show is over aren’t going to get a great response, whoever they are. Secondly, the presentation of the show doesn’t play to the strengths of the talent. The storylines overall have been pretty hokey, and the matches have been decent but not great for the most part. The working style presented on the show doesn’t align with what people want to see from lighter wrestlers. The show doesn’t seem to understand what its about either. Why is Drew Gulak carrying signs and protesting about people doing flips when barely anybody does flips? He can’t be presented as different because he does mat wrestling when most of the guys on the show do mat wrestling for most of their matches. The WWE United Kingdom product is different from the rest, and if they avoid the two mistakes 205 Live has fallen prey to, they should be fine. They’re taping shows in the United Kingdom, in the same type of environment that made the Tournament popular with viewers. The performers were allowed to play to their strengths in their matches. Pete Dunne especially did a good job developing his character in a way that added to the presentation instead of taking away from it like most of 205 Live’s attempts of character development have. If they keep doing what they did during the tournament, and don’t get too cute with the storylines, the UK Series should be successful.
5. Considering the overwhelming mount of talent WWE has under contract, and the fact that they are always looking for more WWE network content, you would be interested in WWE running a tournament with a group of the extra 205 Live/NXT/UK and main roster guys not being used.
Greg DeMarco: FACT – Again–why not? Would you enjoy Drew Gulak vs. Trent Seven? I would! Seriously though, this is a great idea. You need to do something with Hideo Itami? Have him win this. Austin Aries is perfect for this, too. Then take it a step further and spread the early matches around. Network special, 205 Live, NXT, UK series, even Raw and Smackdown. I can’t find a single shred of fault this idea, Larry.
Steve Cook: FACT – Any time you ask me if I want more wrestling shows to be produced, I’m going to say yes. Even if I have no intention of ever watching it because I’ve still got years of Mid-South & Prime Time Wrestling to go through on the Network, I always want there to be more shows and more people being paid. What kind of heartless person wouldn’t? Bruno Sammartino was just on Table For 3 the other day talking about how Ivan Koloff should have gotten more of a chance to be world champion instead of dropping the title to Pedro Morales three weeks later. In light of that & Ivan’s death earlier this year, how about The Ivan Koloff Memorial Tournament? The winner would be the ultimate guy that WWE should do more with, just as Bruno thought Ivan was back in the day. Good times.
6. In your opinion, who is the most underutilized member of the WWE roster and why?
Greg DeMarco: The Miz – Brock Lesnar is the WWE Universal Champion and sitting home eating his Jimmy John’s while The Miz is having the best years of his career. Now I know what you’re thinking and yes, Miz is the Intercontinental Champion. For the seventh time. But that’s good enough. Listen, I could list American Alpha, Nia Jax, Sasha Banks, Rich Swann, Drew McIntyre, and even Cesaro. Hell before Extreme Rules I’d have said Samoa Joe. You can easily make a case for Rusev. But The Miz is the man. Whatever he does gets over, he works his ass off in the ring, always tells the best story, and does a ton for the company outside of the ring. The fact that he didn’t win the 2017 Royal Rumble and is not Universal Champion RIGHT NOW is a travesty.
Steve Cook: Mojo Rawley – : I’m not saying that Mojo is the most talented guy not doing anything in WWE right now. What I am saying is that their handling of him since WrestleMania has been baffling. They gave him the big win in the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal, complete with involvement from his good friend Rob Gronkowski that got the sports media coverage and made everybody happy. One would think that this would have led to some type of a push for Mojo. One would be wrong. After beating future WWE Champion Jinder Mahal on the SmackDown Live after WrestleMania, Mojo has had two matches on SmackDown Live and lost both of them, including giving Mahal his win back this week in pretty short order. He’s spent most of his time the last couple of months tweeting at Shane McMahon asking to be used on the TV show. I mean…what? For one thing, it makes SmackDown’s claim to be “The Land of Opportunity” look silly when one of their guys wins a big intra-brand match at WrestleMania and then they can’t get on the show afterwards. Dude got an opportunity and made the most of it, so now you’re going to put him on ice? Certainly some questionable managing of talent there. I know a lot of the smart crowd doesn’t particularly care for Mojo. He’s not the best in-ring guy in the world and his personality seems like it would be grating at times. But the guy does have something of a unique charisma about him. He always gives 100% and he taps into the dudebro culture that makes people like the aforementioned Gronkowski so popular. I mean, we’re living in a world where Jinder Mahal went from Raw irrelevancy to SmackDown champion and Lana finally exited the Witness Protection program and was given a Women’s Championship match while the rest of the division has to kill themselves in a ladder match to earn one. I don’t think it’s too crazy to say that Mojo Rawley should be doing something of significance on SmackDown Live, and should have been doing it back in April when we were fresh off of WrestleMania and the Gronk rub was in full effect.
