Ask 411 Wrestling: Did Vince Actually Buy Anyone Out?

Hello, and welcome to the only column written by someone that is totally not bummed that no-one here wished him a happy birthday, Ask 411 Wrestling!

It’s true, my birthday long weekend was awesome, so doesn’t bother me any.

Anyway, onto the questions!

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The Column’s Format: I try to be consistent, in that questions/other people’s stuff are bold italic, quotes are italics, and I’m plain text. The issue is that for whatever reason bold doesn’t work across paragraphs in 411’s posting system, just a quirk of the system, but I have ways around that now. Apologies if it doesn’t quite work all the time. As for there being no ‘flow’ to the questions, sorry, but I’ve been doing this for a long time now and thus the questions I get are all over the place, and the questions that would ‘flow’ are ones that I can only do one a week or else this thing would be two pages long. So I put the questions in as I answer them, roughly.

The ‘No Current Champ’ Question: Basically the question wanted to know if there had been a longer time period across which no active, full time member of the roster at the point of counting was WWE champ than when Rollins was injured and the last such champion was Del Rio. I agree it’s a slightly esoteric question.

Drugs/Steroids/Responsibility: This is a very murky field, but suffice to say that while I may take issue with Vince’s demand for physical looks and/or Heyman’s past blind eyeism, I don’t blame them directly for any deaths, but they certainly aren’t on the side of angels overall. But like a lot of issues there is no clear cut sole reason for something happening, so there’s nothing to be gained from boiling it down to one reason only.

The Trivia Crown

Who am I? I’m taller than Dean Ambrose. I began my career as a foreigner gimmick, weirdly enough. One of my tag team names was nearly a band. I got my foot in the door of somewhere due to a police operation. The best in the world once ruined a near full year’s work of mine. My debut match in the big leagues was beating someone I’d later team with. One of my finishers is styled after a guy on the roster someone. I’m a trainer, a former sports star, and very very, I am who?

Swedish Sensation along with Peachmeister got most of it, but I’ll do this so as to explain all the answers.

Who am I? I’m taller than Dean Ambrose. I began my career as a foreigner gimmick, weirdly enough (Japanese gimmick in Sweden). One of my tag team names was nearly a band (AC/CC with Arik Cannon). I got my foot in the door of somewhere due to a police operation (Was a police officer in a WWE segment before he got hired). The best in the world once ruined a near full year’s work of mine (World’s Greatest Tag Team won the ROH tag belts from the KOW at 363 days into their reign). My debut match in the big leagues was beating someone I’d later team with (Tyson Kidd). One of my finishers is styled after a guy on the roster someone (Gotch Style Neutralizer, not named after Simon Gotch). I’m a trainer (lots of guys), a former sports star (He played Rugby, supposedly), and very very (European), I am who? (Cesaro)

Maraviloso is back for this week’s question.

A god, a Duggan and a Cyclops trained me. I was a world champion until royalty stood in my way. I’ve wrestled at Starrcade and have wrestled in ECW and TNA, including PPV matches. I’ve teamed with gentlemen and with someone who’ve claimed to be a fish, and beat a horse at something. I did something a Guerrero has done before and someone close to Chris Jericho helped me. I was the first at winning something and the one with the longest tenure having that thing I won. Oh, and Harry Potter might not like me very much, but someone at Lucha Underground really does. Who am I?

Getting Down To All The Business

Manu Bumb has a follow up from last week.

Hey Mat – one quick follow-up question to your explanation of why shane was using the bolt cutters to get out of the cage through one of the panels – why didn’t he just use the bolt cutters on the door?

Visually, what they did looked cool, eventually, but wouldn’t it have made more sense for him to cut the chain around the door and exit that way? Re-watching the match right now, it doesn’t look like there was any sort of deadbolt on the door, just the chain. Snip that and he’s out.

…On the opposite side of the cell from what he wants to jump. He’s not so suicidal as to jump off the cell onto concrete, he wants Taker on the announce table so the impact is enough to beat him, not to kill both of them. If he leaves via the door, he then has to get Taker all the way around the cell, then knock him down, then climb, then jump. Better to go directly to where you want to jump than to save a minute cutting.

Speaking of announce tables, MilvySimoes?

What is the purpose of Kevin Owens constantly mocking Michael Cole when he is outside of the ring (and sometimes inside the ring)? Is this just his way of pandering to the IWC, or are there thoughts that this may actually lead to something?

In-universe, a year ago, Kevin Owens explained this in an interview on youtube.

Owens believes that Cole is biased against him, and that he’s too much of a shill for WWE TV.

Like most great heels, there’s an element of truth there, and that truth is that Cole sucks as an announcer.

Or at least, Michael Cole with Vince in his ear sucks. Now, as for actual reasons, I don’t think there’s any actual beef, as this is, from where I sit, character work. Owens character is of a guy who is talented and is motivated by good reasons (wanting to support his family, a drive to be the best), but is going about it all wrong, plus has a major inferiority complex. Cole is the main announcer, and therefore the voice of the WWE (alas), and he doesn’t like Owens, or at the very least, isn’t singing his praises 100%. Ergo, in Owens’ warped mind, he’s biased and trying to sabotage Owens’ career. So why wouldn’t he yell and taunt Cole when he could, to keep him in line and to try and make Cole talk about him all the time?

Speaking of stuff said all the time, Michael?

Hey, do you think the majority of the people in this site who use the word “buried” know what it actually means in terms of how a wrestler is used?

It was used in reference last week to Vince “burying” all the WCW guys and it’s been used a million times over to how WWE used Daniel Bryan. I commented that WCW guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, and Booker T. all did pretty well with WWE, especially considering all of them were World Champions in some capacity unless being the #1 (or 2, depending on what world title they held) guy in the company is being “buried.”

And I’ll never get the Bryan “buried” argument. No, I doubt Vince wanted to make Bryan the guy initially but look at the facts. Dude won the IC and US title and was one half of the most over tag teams in the WWF in recent memory. Then he’s the Smackdown champ. Then he’s involved in the main storylines in WWE for a year, b/w his matches with Cena, and Orton, and then feuding with the Authority, all of which culminates with him winning the World title at WrestleMania in which he defeated Orton, Batista and HHH in one night. Along the way he’s basically main eventing , or in the biggest storylines, on Raw and every PPV during this time.

To me, doesn’t sound like a burial, sounds like he’s one of the main guys then, eventually, is the main guy. Seems like if a guy doesn’t go undefeated and/or is made World champ instantly, then he’s “buried” nowadays.

I think this is a case of carny slang being misused, yes, but the problem it’s being used to discuss is a legitimate one.

Your basic point is solid, a burial in wrestling is a specific term for a specific thing, which is to deliberately and intentionally derail a wrestler or a team or whatever via either having the announcers and other wrestlers talk about how much they suck/putting them down and/or having a match where they look like a goof, or the more serious shunting them down the card, turning them into a jobber of a JTTS at best. So full blown actual burials in WWE are somewhat rare, the Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior DVD being probably the most high profile example of one.

That said, like a lot of old words that don’t mean what they are used to say, the underlying thing being talked about is a legitimate concern, just one that isn’t always as clear cut as the IWC would have it. The IWC tend to use burial as “not use to the fullest extent they could”, and that is something that does happen.

Not everyone can be WWE Champion, sure. But Zack Ryder sure as hell could have been a solid upper mid card guy for years.

https://youtu.be/dJWn6IZtZAg

But WWE chose not to solidify that position, instead he held the title for barely a month and then got beat up by Kane a bunch as an adjunct to a storyline not involving him, then lost the title to Jack Swagger, and moved down the card pretty quick. That’s not technical a burial, but it’s sure as hell a steel weight tied to his leg.

And hell, winning matches and titles doesn’t mean you aren’t being held back somewhat. CM Punk held the WWE title for 434 days, and for most of that he played second fiddle to John Cena’s issues with Johnny Ace and then dropped it to a part timer who wasn’t really feuding with him at all.

Not that these are new complaints, but the point is, while I agree that, for example, Daniel Bryan’s career in WWE wasn’t a ‘burial’, it was hardly a success. He was meant to be the little comedy guy in Team Hell No, and his World Title run was supposed to be comedic, a redo of the old Crash Holly idea, that a guy that small and nerdy thought he could hang with guys like Kane and Big Show and Mark Henry, which is obviously silly. Remember, the Sheamus 7 second thing was supposed to be a huge relief to the fans, that the annoying, misguided, arrogant little prick who got a girl he didn’t deserve got beat and beat decisively, that was meant to be us as fans burying Bryan.

Every WCW guy with the possible exception of Ric Flair since he’s, you know, Ric Fricking Flair, had to be torn down and rebuilt in Vince’s eyes before they got a world title run, no matter what position they proved they could work at in WCW. In some cases like Jericho, the talent actually needed that time and it worked out well. And sometimes the attempt is laughably stupid.

Yes, you can argue that Goldberg’s character is woefully underdeveloped, that once you end the streak, what else is there? But the fact is, people paid good money to see Goldberg beat people up quickly, and in theory would still be willing to do that, if he was presented as that guy. But he wasn’t, and he never recovered from that.

This is all IWC Greatest Hits, but it needs to be said, because I don’t think it is said in this way: You have a right to be angry/upset/annoyed/not happy that a wrestler you like/think is good is not being used to their full potential, but that doesn’t mean that they are being ‘buried’, nor does it automatically mean there is a conspiracy afoot. People are injured. People are not adjusting to a new environment. People request changes. So don’t just blindly blame Vince.

When he deserves it, sure, pile on, but that’s not always the case.

Speaking of stuff people already know and that I don’t really need to go back over, Pedro?

Long time since my last question…anyway, just wondering what’s wrong with Koko B. Ware WWE HOF induction..? People have to know that he simply did his job (be a midcard/jobber) and, apparently, he did very well, reason the WWE have awarded him. The guy’s huge popular and always over with fans. Then, why most of people do not accept him in HOF (…If Koko gets in….) waht is the criteria to be inducted? if so, Does Koko fill that criteria? Sorry for take so many lines.

Oops, sorry, reflex.

Anyway, Koko is the chosen poster child for the problem you bring up: What, exactly, is the criteria for entry into the Hall of Fame? Because they don’t have any set criteria, nor is there any transparency about the methodology.

The Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame, for comparison, has a set criteria for what it’s judged on (length of time spent in wrestling, historical significance, ability to attract viewers, and wrestling ability), rules on voting (inductees must have at least 15 years of experience in the wrestling business or be over 35 years old and have 10 years of experience. To gain membership in the hall, potential inductees must receive 60% support on the ballots from their geographic region. Any person that gets less than 10% of the vote is eliminated from the ballot. If a person fails to get inducted 15 years after being put on the ballot, they must get 50% of the vote or be eliminated) and for that matter, voting (wrestlers, people in the industry, journalists and historians). Although the 96 class was huge as Dave just entered 122 names in at the start as a pretty darn solid basis for the thing.

So that Hall of Fame, while you may disagree with some choices and/or omissions (Sting not being in is a popular disagreement, Benoit still being in is an unpopular agreement too), has a somewhat clear objective way to judge if someone is worthy of the Hall of Fame.

WWE, on the other hand, while they’re obviously trying to improve it with their Legacy inductions, still comes down to the inductees being chosen based on who is on good terms with WWE, who can turn up and speak, who will appeal to the market where WWE is holding Wrestlemania at that week, and spreading out big names across multiple years. It’s a marketing gimmick, is the claim. Certainly it’s run more like marketing than a serious endeavor, with selections not chosen on merit, that much.

But that’s hard to sum up in a catchy little joke. And guys like Pete Rose and Drew Carey are jokes, but jokes WWE is making themselves, so that sorta doesn’t count (although Andy Kaufman not being in that category is just wrong). But Koko? Koko’s career wasn’t amazing, wasn’t trailblazing, wasn’t money making, wasn’t that great. Hell, dude didn’t even win any titles that WWE would usual trot out in these sorts of things. Nothing against the man personally, but the idea that he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame before Sting got in, before Shawn Michaels got in, before Mick Foley, before Bruno Sammartino, before everyone in the Legacy category, that’s the problem. WWE isn’t putting people in in the order that they deserve to go in, WWE is putting people in in the order they feel they can maximise profits on. And people don’t like that.

Speaking of WWE doing things people don’t like, Brendan?

We always read and hear about Vince buying up smaller territories int he early 80s when he expanded the company nationally. My question is, what actual territories did he purchase. I know he purchased a controlling share of Georgia Championship Wrestling and lured wrestlers from other territories, leading to their collapse (i.e. AWA). But I have never found a definitive list of territories that Vince purchased outright.

Probably because there weren’t that many of them. Vince, or so he has claimed in the past, would offer to buy out pretty much every competitor first, and most of them said no. At that point Vince would say “OK!”, get on his plane, go back to New York, then sign away people’s talents and/or undercut them to get their TV time and drive them out of business, since he’s all about helping himself, not hurting the other guy.

*All The Chandlers*

So the actual number of companies that Vince bought was quite small. Other than the Georgia share he had for a bit, Vince owned Stampede Wrestling for a year, as Stu Hart sold the company to Vince in 1984, then changed his mind and bought it back a year later. Maple Leaf Wrestling, another Canadian company, was bought out in 84 as well, with Jack Tunney ended up with the WWF President ‘role’ and the actual head of WWF Canada’s operations role out of the deal, as he was running what was his father and uncle’s company before him. Wrestling At The Chase, while not bought out as such, did switch to becoming a WWF run show/’company’ in 1984 though to it’s cancellation in 1985.

Beyond that, I can’t find records of anyone else actually up and selling, until you get to WCW and possibly ECW if you count that. Crockett probably bought out more people, as he had to to challenge Vince at that point, but Vince would offer a buyout, then usually get knocked back, then just take their TV time and any stars he felt valuable. But maybe I’m forgetting a company or two. Readers?

Speaking of my readers, David?

We know from former WWE writer Kevin Eck that WWE tells them there are no true heels or faces in the division, and that the women should be written as catty chicks, most of who are mentally unstable. With that said, how many times has Alicia Fox turned? Is there a coincidental pattern to it, i.e., does she turn more on Raw or Smackdown? Is she heel on dates that are odd and face on days that are even? Also, when did this booking of the divas become the standard? I think the division had cleaner face/heel lines drawn before.

… Welp, finally here.

To start with the last bit first, when did the booking become standard? When the Bella Twins returned.

Specifically, around the time Total Divas began to air, I think. 2012 had somewhat basic angles and ideas, some of the characters sucked (Natalya’s… Hell, most of her gimmicks have sucked) but there were clear lines. Eve Torres was heel, AJ was insane but basically goodish, Kelly Kelly was face, etcetc. It was maybe getting a little ‘Bitches Be Crazy’ but only because AJ was so front and center.

Then 2013 happened. The Bella Twins came back, and then in the middle of the year Total Divas came on, and that was the point where it all got muddled, as women would be against each other on the show but defend each other on Raw against those who were against the show but were still good or who were bad because they hated the show that was headlined by heels and… Eva Marie happened…

2013 was then the lines blurred, although it was a slow decline, as AJ/Kaitlyn was the last truly solid face/heel feud that didn’t involve WWE expecting us to care about Brie Bella.

As for Alicia Fox, I do kinda want to wimp out specifically because she doesn’t actually turn, as such. The character is designed, supposedly, to be a tweener, and thus her insane flipping isn’t a heel or face turn, it’s just part of the overall package. But, screw it, let’s see what I can do.

Ignoring all the OVW/FCW stuff:

Starts as a ‘face’ as a neutral party planner, hired to run Edge and Vickie Guerrero’s wedding.
Turns ‘heel’ when she hooks up with Edge.
Turns face when she manages DJ Gabriel.
Turns heel after being drafted to Smackdown, teams with Michelle McCool.
Turns face against the Divas of Doom (after going to Raw, winning and losing Divas title and then drafted back to SD)
Turns… heel? when she goes up against Total Divas and then forms Foxsana.
Turns insane when feuding with Paige over Divas Title.
Turns… heel again on return from absence when she aligns with Paige against AJ Lee.
Turns face when Paige blames her for Paige not winning Divas title off AJ.
Turns heel, maybe, when aligns with Miz and Mizdow against Naomi and Usos.
Turns heeler when forms Team Bella.

So that’s… See, this is the problem with Fox, I’m sure I’m missing Main Events and such wherein she works as the opposing alignment, this is just the major stuff, and how the hell do you count it? I count maybe 6 proper turns, but again, her gimmick is that she turns on a knife, so do they count?

So yeah, this is still something of a wimp out answer, but she defies the question somewhat.

Speaking of wimping out on answers, Rahil?

Like Cactus Jack`s ear rip in Germany, have there been any other wrestlers that have suffered bodily disfigurement ?????

Yeah, Zack Gowen got a leg cut off when he was 8.

I mean, Kamala, he’s lost both legs beneath his knees…

The problem here is that the answer is “Yes, Lots”, but I can’t list them, because I cannot list the names of every wrestler who has lost a tooth in the ring, or who is scarred after blading, or who has wrestled in a CZW deathmatch or whatever. Hell, I’ve got a couple scars from wrestling, that count?

I mentioned I was a wrestler, DRINK!

Anyway, on the scale of Mick Foley’s ear? Nothing springs to mind. Wrestlers break stuff all the time, but most of the time it is repaired, not lost. Most of the time it’s teeth that are lost, or some guy who lost the top of his finger, but disfigurement, nothing I could find. Perhaps a reader with a stronger stomach can direct me.

Speaking of having to have a strong stomach, P From Q?

On Johnny Ace, I’m having a hard time telling which of these guys were either Johnny signings or HHH’s, since 2009 seemed to be the year where Steph and H took over:

The problem is that the transition wasn’t a cut and dried one. Johnny took over the job in June 2004, and then in mid-2009 Stephanie was transitioning people that were on ‘her side’ into positions of power, and while Johnny Ace’s position remained constant, his power may well have fallen.

-The Shield: Roman Reigns was a guy always on the WWE’s radar, Jim Ross was looking out for him for many years, but he signed on in 2010, which was after Steph had control of the division overall. Likewise with Ambrose and Rollins, although with Rollins the guy who convinced him was Evan Bourne.

-Daniel Bryan: First time round was Shawn Michaels, back in 2000, but the second, important time round, but then Spanky got him on the WWE’s radar, and then Johnny Ace was the guy who offered him a deal.

-Cesaro: Must have been Johnny Ace back in 2006, but then in 2011, must have been Steph….

-Aj Lee: She came in via a tryout camp at FCW in 2009, so probably she was looked at by guys like Steve Keirn, Billy Kidman, the people running FCW at the time. The final decision maker seems impossible to find, alas.

-Bray Wyatt: Johnny Ace. IRS brought him and his brother up to meet Johnny Ace and other agents and he got a job out of it.

There’s a reason that apart from the two family connections, it’s a bit muddled, as these days WWE is a big media powerhouse as they keep saying, and thus there’s several layers of bureaucracy and middle management involved. And that’s a problem, as at the end of the day, too many people involved leads to a problem putting on a wrestling show.

Sure, Vince being the final say so helps and all, but to book a wrestling company in the logical, sane way that most people say they want, the old school way of doing it, the booker has to control the roster, and the payroll. They have to decide who gets signed, and who doesn’t. And even if you don’t want to turn back the clock that far, you still run into the problem of the creative team being separate from the talent scouts.

How are you supposed to know who’s coming up if you’re not picking the new talent, and thus how do you long term plan? Likewise, if you don’t know where the company is thinking of heading, how do you know who to hire? A big complaint against Johnny Ace’s reign was that all the women were from modelling magazines and all the men looked the same. But how do we know that was just his personal opinion? How do we know that there wasn’t a memo or a mixed up miscommunication about what they wanted?

…

Nah, Johnny Ace just sucked.

And on that note, I bring this edition to a close, as I’m still recovering from my birthday. See you all next week!