411 Wrestling Fact or Fiction: Does WWE ‘Suck’?

Welcome back to the 411mania Wrestling Fact or Fiction. I’m your host Jake Chambers.

Welcome to the Finals of the annual Larry Csonka Memorial Fact or Fiction Tournament.

Larry Csonka was the hardest working man in wrestling coverage, and I’ve tried to honour his memory with the themes of the tournament so far. The first week focused on the editorial side of running a wrestling news site featuring 411 head site editor Jeremy Thomas versus lead wrestling writer Jeremy Lambert from Fightful. The next match-up saw Thomas Hall and Ian Hamilton discuss issues related to reviewing matches and shows on a regular basis. Based on the readers’ poll, the two Thomases moved on to today’s finals.

In addition, I invited Steve Cook to take part, finalist from 2020’s Road to Wrestlemania FoF Tournament and someone who worked closely with Larry over the years, including doing some great podcasts together. It was on those later 411 on Wrestling podcasts that we got to hear what a great storyteller Larry was and realize that as much as this was a job for him watching wrestling was something that he loved to do as a fan first and foremost.

For the finals today I wanted to focus on 2 specific themes: fandom and writing. So I gave the three finalists only two statements this week focusing on some larger pro-wrestling fandom questions, but with a twist to challenge their writing chops.

SPECIAL RULE: For the two statements, they can only respond FACT or FICTION once. That means one answer must be a Fact and the other must be Fiction, and if they don’t necessarily agree they need to try to best justify their response regardless.

Please take this wrinkle into consideration when voting for the winner at the end of the column. Let’s see how they handled this finals challenge!

Participants were told to expect wrestling-related content, as well as possible statements on quantum physics, homemade pharmaceuticals, the Turtle Total Trip Theorem, pizza and hydroponics.

Statement #1: WWE sucks.

Jeremy Thomas: FICTION – I know the rules of this, but I honestly didn’t answer this as FICTION only because I had to.  Yes, I would absolutely agree that certain aspects of WWE “sucks.”  It’s hard not to be annoyed to disgusted at the company for a lot of the things they do – booking repetitive matches, the talent releases, underusing stars, you name it.  I have a lot of disdain for them as a corporate entity, even as I understand that some of what they do is technically out of their obligation as a publicly-traded company where they have a duty to make their shareholders as much money as possible.

All that said, I can’t really paint the entire company with one brush.  That shades a whole lot of talent who are incredibly talented and making entertaining television, sometimes out of questionable situations.  There are definitely signs of light to look at; they do a lot of good with their charitable work, even if it’s for good PR.  And while it’s a chore to watch Raw and sometimes elements of NXT or Smackdown, their PPVs are generally delivering on big levels.  Whatever you may think of Peacock, their original programming on it is almost always must-watch TV whether Broken Skull Sessions, Ruthless Aggression, or the rest of it.

So yeah, all in all I think we can all agree that WWE has some big problems right now.  Few people are going to call Vince McMahon or Bruce Pritchard their favorite booker right now, and WWE is like every other corporation in doing some shady shit.  That’s nothing new though, and we can’t say they weren’t doing shady shit in the Attitude Era when they weren’t the big punching bag.  And I can’t say the company as a whole sucks.

Thomas Hall: FICTION – WWE does NOT suck, but its presentation certainly does. Earlier this week, I was going through my pay per view reviews for the End Of The Year Awards (which you should be reading) and I found something that astounded me: the lowest overall rating I gave to a WWE pay per view event this year was a C+ (or about a 6.5). That is not normal whatsoever, as there is ALWAYS something bad over the course of the pay per view calendar.

The talent on WWE’s roster is crazy deep too. Look at some of the names that they have, including but not limited to: Cesaro, Ricochet, AJ Styles, Roman Reigns, Big E., Bobby Lashley, Seth Rollins, Becky Lynch, Bianca Belair, Rey Mysterio, Edge, Finn Balor, Rhea Ripley, Sasha Banks, Drew McIntyre, Kevin Owens and more. That is some outstanding depth, meaning that you could see a good match at any given time. It is pretty rare to not see a solid match on any given show, and the talent roster allows that to happen.

At the end of the day, WWE has a presentation problem. They try to make things too complicated and the good things are buried underneath all of the bad. When you strip away some of the wacky things you see on TV and the, ahem, questionable talent relations issues, you have an outstanding roster and a company that still knows how to put on good shows when they stop overthinking things. There is a lot of good to be found in WWE (their live events are still a blast) and when they can control the bad, they are still very enjoyable.

WWE may do a lot of things, but suck is not one of them.

Steve Cook: FACT – Here’s the thing. When you put a broad statement like “WWE Sucks” out into the ether, you’re going to need to be able to explain exactly what you mean. World Wrestling Entertainment is an immense company with a lot going on. Some of the things they currently do are very good, such as their charity work & having much of their old content available for easy consumption. For the purpose of this exercise, I’m focusing on their television product. You know, the stuff that airs on USA & Fox every week.

Most of the matches are technically fine. If I was just one of those fans that watched for wrestling moves & people that could execute them, I would be perfectly happy with most WWE programming. The problem comes when you ask me to care about most of the characters that WWE presents. Most of them don’t seem like human beings, and not in the cool way that superheroes don’t seem like normal people. They seem like pre-programmed approximations of human beings reading scripts. They come out with overproduced entrances with obnoxious graphics. After the entrance, they stand around awhile during commercials and other interviews, then we finally get a match where they go through various moves.

Certainly there are exceptions to the rule. The Heyman/Bloodline/Lesnar stuff has been a highlight. Big E as a champion seemed to have some promise. For the most part, I wouldn’t say WWE is “bad”. I’d say it’s “boring”. To me, “boring” sucks more than “bad”, because at least I’ll remember “bad” the next day. I’ll watch most of these shows and remember nothing the next day, even when I’m on a Dry January kick. Nothing knocks my socks off. It sucks, because I’d rather have a ton of things on WWE television motivating me to write about either how good or how bad they are. I got nothing, man.

Statement #2: You would prefer that wrestlers retire from in-ring competition while they are in their prime, during their 30s and 40s, rather than stick around into their 50s and 60s in roles of potentially diminishing quality and athleticism.

Thomas Hall: FACT – As fun as it can be otherwise, this is a FACT for me. When I was growing up, I was a Little Stinger, because Sting was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. The face paint, the charisma, the whole package made you want to cheer for him. It was great to see him come back in AEW and do some great stuff in some rather fun matches. The YOU STILL GOT IT chants were awesome as well as accurate, but there is a problem: how many Stings are there?

I will point you to Crown Jewel 2018, and one of the longest awaited returns in wrestling. That night, Shawn Michaels returned to the ring to team with Triple H against the Undertaker and Kane in quite the dream tag match. These were two of the most successful teams of their era but we had never seen a huge match between them before. That was all going to change on a huge stage….and it was bad. I mean it was REALLY bad.

With Triple H as the youngest wrestler in the match at 49 years old (compared to 53 for Michaels and Undertaker and 51 for Kane), the match wound up being nothing short of a disaster with everyone looking more than their age. I’m not sure how much Michaels got to come back for this mess but it should have been ten to twenty years. The match was a mess and it is best forgotten, but it might not have even been the worst example involving Undertaker. Do we need to go through the Goldberg fiasco again? I should say not.

There are instances where this can work and there are absolutely wrestlers who can hang on a lot longer than others (Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Ric Flair etc.), but there are a lot more instances where it is just sad to see. Like every other wrestler, these people are getting older and they don’t look as good and can’t move as well. Maybe they can pop up for a good one every now and then, but more often than not, it is best to leave the memories alone.

Steve Cook: FICTION – I used to be one of those people that thought everybody should be retired from in-ring competition by 50. Especially once the WWE Network became a thing and we could easily watch people when they were good. Now, as an older gentleman that some people think should be pushed out the door, I understand the idea of not wanting to retire from the thing that you love. Sting wrestling at 62 is kinda crazy. He’s obviously not what he used to be, but he can still do some things. Ric Flair wrestled forever, and would still be wrestling today if he could get cleared. Jerry Lawler still works indies in his 70s. The Rock ‘n’ Roll Express still wrestles in their 60s.

Two things keep me from advocating the ol’ ageism talking point. One, it’s such a good story when it’s done right, and it’s so easy to tell. The other? Younger wrestlers have a ton of fun wrestling the legends. They get to bump for the guys they grew up watching. From what I’ve seen in shoot interviews, they have more fond memories of working with *fill in ex-WWF Superstar here* than whatever indy feud put them on the map. As long as somebody can still physically do something, or be made to look like they can physically do something, I got no problem with them getting in the ring.

As long as a major company doesn’t put a major title on them. Then we got a problem.

Jeremy Thomas: FACT – Look, no one’s going to deny that there are some talents who can absolutely go well into their 50s and 60s.  Whatever you think of the man aside, Ric Flair was delivering in the ring into his 50s and 60s, Jerry Lawler still wrestled semi-regularly for independent companies before the pandemic and entertains crowds.  Sting isn’t doing bad in his AEW run.  And Terry Funk: enough said.

That said, while those guys (and some others) do exist they are the exception to the rule.  The lure is far too strong for some people to continue chasing their glory days because of the rush of fame and the allure of the money. And it’s done to the detriment of their own physical well-being.  Funk’s health issues are legendary, after all.  I’ve always felt it makes far more sense for wrestling to find a way to set up some kind of safety net for talent so they don’t have to keep getting in the ring; it forces companies to actually push new talent instead of just plugging in legacy and nostalgia acts, and protects the well-being of performers who don’t end up becoming as wealthy and self-sufficient as the Flairs, Goldbergs, and Stings.  I have little faith that would ever happen, but it would be the ideal scenario in a perfect world.

Now, this doesn’t mean that I am going to bitch about part-timers coming back for guest spots or the like.  I’m also not going to trash older stars taking jobs, or even trash companies for booking them.  They’re working in an incredibly imperfect system and that means that they have to do what they have to do.  But if you’re asking about preference?  I would absolutely prefer that wrestling stay a young man’s game.

Amazing! Truly a battle a great writer like Larry would have appreciated. Seek these guys out and support their social media, websites, and awesome 411 columns:

Steve Cook on Twitter = https://twitter.com/stevecook84
Thomas Hall‘s review website = https://kbwrestlingreviews.com/
Jeremy Thomas on Twitter = https://twitter.com/jthomas411mania

Please vote for the writer you believe should win the inaugural Larry Csonka Fact or Fiction Memorial Tournament. Remember the SPECIAL RULE: the writers could only respond with FACT or FICTION once.

As well, I want to remind everyone reading this that the Go Fund Me set up for Larry’s daughters is still active: https://www.gofundme.com/f/larrymania-living-on-in-his-girls