Ask 411 Wrestling: Is Samoa Joe The First to Debut in Raw’s Main Event?

Good day to you. This is my second attempt at writing this issue of Ask 411 Wrestling, thanks to my computer shutting down with the document open and corrupting the file. Which I am so happy about. I had three questions answered, and now it’s all gone. Grrrrrr.

If you’d like a question to get answered, provided my computer doesn’t eat your question, send it to [email protected].

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I’m submitting this before the last issue went up. It’s hard to sync up, dawg.

You Q, I A

We kick it off with APinOz, who follows up on someone else’s question from a week or two ago about the AWA.

So, I have a question which relates to the AWA. As you pointed out, they were very much a territory based in the Minnesota/Illinois/Wisconsin region. Yet they ran their TV tapings for a very long time out of Las Vegas. Do you know why that would be? It seems odd that they chose to tape TV so far away from their home base.

As the 80’s wore on, and the toll of Vince McMahon’s manifest destiny-like national expansion continued, Verne Gagne found himself forced to leave his familiar trappings in order to cultivate a bigger audience. He would manage to expand into places like San Francisco and Denver, which is certainly not near the upper Great Lakes area, helping give more of than small-time regional feel. Not quite the touring circuit the other two had, but it was something.

So, when the ESPN deal came around, it gave them a chance to really change AWA’s image from a small-time also-ran to a major player. I mean, yeah, WWF had Hulk Hogan and national syndication, NWA had Ric Flair and a home on Ted Turner’s networks … but this was ESPN! A legit sports channel – nay, the only all-sports channel on American television! You can’t manufacture that kind of credibility! And one of ESPN’s first suggestions was to take the tapings out of Atlantic City and move them somewhere else, which ended up being Las Vegas. As a larger, more glamorous city than the AWA’s normal midwest touring circuit, Vegas would bring more glitz and glamour, which would, in theory, make the AWA seem more big time.

Plus, there was a rumored preference for the town from the boys in the locker room. I have no idea why. *coughalcoholdrugsandhookersoneverystreetcornercough*

And then there was the fact that the venue, the Showboat Sports Pavilion, came cheaper because it wasn’t on the Strip. With the AWA’s finances being more imperiled by the day, getting more bang for the buck was paramount, and the Showboat filled that need. Combine a cheap venue with a popular tourist town … it’s a license to print money!

If only it turned out that way, eh?

Timmy (must … resist … easy … South Park gag …) wants to know … no, there’s no lead-in for this. It cannot be done.

I’ll send you a Link to a YouTube-Video, maybe you already know it…
There’s a few People in that match… Ciampa, Chuck Taylor, Jushin Lyger, Tommy End… They wear Cat Make Up and put their fingers up each others butt…

What’s the Story behind this match? What are they doing, why are they doing it? Why are they wearing cat make up?

I don’t suppose I can just get away with saying “It’s PWG” and that settles the issue, right?

No? Dammit.

So, this match is from the third night of PWG’s annual Battle Of Los Angeles tournament. If you’re not familiar with PWG, think what would happen if Chikara didn’t have the labyrinthine storylines, but kept the high level of talent and turned up the sense of humor. I mean, they have events with names like “Chanukah Chaos (The C’s Are Silent)” and “Holy Diver Down”. The BOLA events are a three-night best-of-the-indies tournament. While PWG is not the biggest indie in the States, the BOLA tournament has become the tournament on the indie scene to make a name for oneself, not unlike the Super-8 around the turn of the century.

Well, when they get to evening #3, they have all these talents in town, and many of them no longer in the tournament, but they need something to do. So, they book other matches, some of which are there as a goof, just to entertain the crowd through sheer insanity. Like this.

The cat masks and thumb-in-the-bum spots build off elements from the previous night’s show. The cat mask came from a tournament match between Sami Callihan and Cody not-Rhodes (brief aside; why not just use Runnels?). For reasons I can’t pin down despite by best research, Callihan scurried under the ring and came up with a paper bag that contained the “Space Cat” mask. Cody came up with a paper bag that had the un-Dashing mask, for the record. Cute.

In the same evening, during Tomasso Ciampa’s match against Dalton Castle, Chuck Taylor was on commentary at the time. Ciampa’s appearance here was a surprise, as he and Johnny Gargano were fresh off their epic match at Takover: Brooklyn 2 with The Revival, and PWG needed someone to replace Jack Gallagher, who’d had to cancel last minute. So, Ciampa shows up and the crowd goes apeshit. Chuck Taylor, on commentary, says, and I quote, “I don’t like Ciampa. He borderline raped me twice.” Like the cat mask, I have no idea the context for this and, frankly, I don’t want to.

So, the next night, both of those elements get rolled into the massive 10-man tag you see in that video. Liger, a partner of Taylor, volunteers to take the rectal invasion over Chucky T to save him from a trifecta of violations. And the cat masks are all in homage to the previous night’s mask discovery by Callihan. Because it’s PWG, and that’s just how they roll.

Over now to AJ, who asks his interconnected questions with style. Shut up, I’m a dad, I can make these jokes.

WM10 was suppose to have Earthquake vs Borga before Borga’s injuries kept him out. Borga was hot having ended Tatanka’s streak and Earthquake was getting a babyface push. How do you think this match would have ended? Also, what happened to Earthquake soon after? He had the big sumo challenge win over Yoko soon after and then the next week they wrote him off TV.

When I researched the question, my first instinct was to say “Borga squashes Earthquake, continues push to the main event to take Yokozuna’s place as EVIL FOREIGNER DU JOUR”. And, on the surface, it would make sense. Borga was given a substantial push out of the gate, ending Tatanka’s two-year undefeated streak and feuding with Lex Luger towards the end of 1993. He even pinned Razor Ramon, then IC Champ, at a house show, but it was overturned because Ramon’s foot was under a rope. It looked like he was moving towards a strong push.

Simultaneously, Earthquake was getting a bit long in the tooth. Not as far as age goes, but shelf life. He was just old hat, and had been surpassed by more versatile big men like Bam Bam Bigelow and Yokozuna. And, on top of that, he was a relic of the era defined by Hulk Hogan. Don’t get me wrong, Earthquake had his place, and was never really used to his maximum potential in WWE. But by 1994, he was a holdover of the past, not a star of the future, and WWF was aching to shed those vestiges. So, putting Borga over Earthquake would’ve made total sense; newcomer squashes big monster, cementing his push.

Except then I remembered at the year all this went down. The same year that Vince McMahon’s steroid trial was also going down. The booking at the time showed a noticeable shift from all the Trunk Slamchests and Buff Hardbacks and Smoke Manmuscles of the 80’s. While not as tall as Hogan, he weighed just as much, and none of it was fat. Going forward with a guy who looked like he juiced (whether he did or not is irrelevant to the point) might’ve been detrimental to the public image Vince was trying to cultivate by pushing smaller, more athletic wrestlers like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. So, with all that, I still think Borga would’ve defeated Earthquake at Wrestlemania X. But I think his push would’ve been substantially curbed in the aftermath. Vince couldn’t afford the publicity of having someone like Borga front and center.

As for Earthquake, injury took him down. During a house show in May, he was hurt in a match with Yokozuna and Crush. This aborted a planned qualifying match for King Of The Ring with Owen Hart. While injured, he left the promotion – no doubt sensing the turning tides in the company – and went back to Japan for the WAR promotion for a brief spell, before Hulk Hogan promised him big money in Atlanta.

Now we go to Elvis, thank you, thank you very much.

When Samoa Joe wrestled Roman Reigns in the main event of Raw for his WWE main roster in-ring debut that had me wondering which other wrestlers made their WWE main roster in-ring debut in the main event. I’m sure quite a few at The Royal Rumble, but any others?

It’s not a common occurrence at all. Unless someone walks in with credibility from outside that the promotion just can’t deny – like Samoa Joe or AJ Styles – then you just don’t see it. Even The Shield, as hot a debut as they got, had their first match in the middle of the show.

But I did manage to think of one.

And not only did Carlito debut in the main event of Smackdown on October 5, 2004, he was victorious.

Winning the United States Championship.

From John Cena.

Yeah, this was before LOLCENAWINS, but still, it’s a thing that happened during Cena’s meteoric rise to the main event.

Can anybody else think of one? I’m drawing a blank, and this isn’t the kind of thing for which there are detailed records.

Intermission!

Patrick has our next question, and it’s one of those subejctive-answer-that-will-surely-not-invite-debate topics.

This is a bit of a doozy, but here goes: I’ve heard the argument made that while Vince’s talent raids and ruthless expansion led to rapid decline of many longrunning territorial promotions, they ultimately were the cause of their own downfall in both business and booking terms. Some might say that argument is WWF/E propaganda, but to test the truth in it, could you describe the worst angle ran by each of the major territories (and I mean a major angle, as opposed to a bizarre, ill advised bizarre gimmick any of them might have foisted on some poor lower carder) in the mid to late 80s? I’ll leave you to decide what the ‘major territories’ were.

The business aspect of your question, in my opinion, is wholly tied to the war with Vince. He did business in a way that they never had to even conceive of before. Think of it this way; you have a group of a thousand knights, armed with swords, crossbows, spears, the best armor and shields, and siege weapons like trebuchets and catapaults. And then you bring in a platoon of 500 modern soldiers; night vision goggles, automatic weapons, armored personnel carriers, fragmentation grenades, the works in modern warfare. There is nothing in the knights’ training that can prepare them for armed drones and sniper rifles. They can’t even imagine such a thing, let alone create a defense for it. The territories were those knights. The NWA had done business their way for so long, the idea of a promoter from a specific geographical region making a national push was a mental 404 error, and Vince was able to take advantage of that blind spot.

Now, yes, some bad business decisions were made by the territories, no argument. Starrcade 87: The Foregone Conclusion emanating from Chicago? Crockett thinking he could try to run the same event against Survivor Series and expect to come out unscathed? Pro Wrestling USA? All laughably bad decisions anybody could’ve seen coming a mile off.

But if you really want some examples of bad angles, there’s plenty of them.

From the Crockett camp, we have the main event of the aforementioned Starrcade ’87. Ron Garvin’s NWA Title run was little more than a “lifetime achievement award” than truly anointing the face of a franchise. The main event of Garvin defending against Flair has such a painfully obvious conclusion, it boggles the mind how they could think anybody doubted the outcome. You also have the 12-car pile-up that was the UWF “invasion”, where most of the UWF wrestlers were buried and humiliated, and the titles either left to unceremoniously die out or merged without regard for their value.

From WCCW, you have Fritz Von Erich’s fake heart attack, a crass, coldly manipulative attempt at holding viewers emotionally hostage via forced sympathy. How it was meant to draw a dime is still an unanswered question. And then there’s those three words every WCCW fan dreads to remember: Lance Von Erich.

CWA/USWA was so ridiculous and campy, it was almost bulletproof in that regard.

The AWA’s big blunder (before the Turkey On A Pole match) would probably be the entirety of the attempted CWA/WCCW alliance, and the fustercluck that was Superclash III. That Kerry Von Erich/Jerry Lawler match, while entertaining, has one of the most bullshit of bullshit endings in wrestling history, to say nothing of the politics that would undo the union of the three promotions.

And then there’s the Pro Wrestling USA endeavor, which was destined to die before the first show happened.

Continuing on with subjective questions, Connor asks what a man is worth when he has a fever.

What did WCW see in Disco Inferno? man, that guy was even worse than Bagwell

Remember that burger flipper analogy from one of my first columns? That applies here. Disco was never meant to be anything other than a midcard heel, and to that effect, he served his purpose. Anybody who looked at Disco and saw main event potential was either blatantly trolling, or had just dropped enough acid to send the entire population of India on one hell of a trip. He was eminently punchable, he had an annoyingly catchy entrance theme that just made you want to see him get trucked, but he was mediocre in the ring, and couldn’t have been elevated past TV Title even if the upper card got King Ralph‘ed. He did his job, and he did it well, but only well enough to rise to the level he got to and no more.

Again, we come up on a rather uncomfortable transition, courtesy of Nightwolf. I’m really drawing the short straws this time.

I was reading an interview with Manny Fernandez. In the interview, he states he beat the Sh*t out of Invader number 3 in retaliation for Jose Gonzalez killing Bruiser Brody. What the truth to this story, and did Fernandez really injure invader number 3?

Well, there is some video in regards to this … if you’re squeamish at all – and I do mean at all – I recommend do not press the play button.

For those who did not watch (I don’t blame you), Manny comes off the top rope with a knee drop to the sternum. Invader 3 starts to vomit up blood in a volume that obliterates the Muta Scale. Manny pushes I3 back into position and hits another knee drop, which is when the ref finally decides to call for the bell. After a third top rope knee drop, Manny is run off, wrestlers and officials come out and carry him to the back to an ambulance.

Now, some believe that, because the cameras follow Invader 3 being carried to the back (and in a manner that could hardly be described as medically advisable for someone puking up blood like the Bellagio fountains), this is a tip-off that it’s a work. There’s also the fact that Manny is allowed to drop the knee twice after I3 starts hemorrhaging before anybody gets off their asses and puts a stop to what, on the surface, looks like murder. If you watch the video, you see that the distance from the Gorilla position to the ring is not exactly in need of those WrestleMania 3 carts. I’ve seen bridal marches down the aisle that were longer. And then there’s how this was promoted as Manny getting revenge for Bruiser’s murder … which, remember, was *cough* allegedly *cough* committed by Invader 1. Not 3. And finally, there’s the amount of “blood” itself. It is really, really over the top. I’ve known people with legit busted ribs, and they did not turn into the bed that swallows Johnny Depp in the original Nightmare On Elm Street. Rumors have followed this story for years that, prior to the match, I3 drank a metric shitload of pig’s blood and vodka to achieve this Tom Savini-level effect.

Which brings us to Manny’s interview. Manny is from a long-ago era, an era that protected the business at all costs. You have to filter it through my predecessor’s “Ask 411 Wrestling (by way of ‘Yes, Prime Minister’) Shoot Interview Rule”, which states:

“Any statement in a wrestler’s shoot interview can represent one of six different levels of reality:
a. What happened.
b. What he believed happened.
c. What he would have liked to have happened.
d. What he wants to believe happened.
e. What he wants other people to believe happened.
f. What he wants other people to believe he believed happened.”

Maybe you – the royal you, not any specific reader – take it at face value. But I cannot. The math doesn’t work out in my mind. Manny’s words sound a lot like option E to me.

And finally, Barry Wilson has a follow-up to another question, and a follow-up to his follow-up.

In a previous episode you were asked about The Life and Times of Terry Taylor. I remember, during his spell as Red Rooster, WWE were trying to flog Red Rooster t-shirts. Did anyone on here own one?

Secondly, what other Wrestlecrap could you buy match for?

I know for sure I didn’t own a Red Rooster shirt, but I can promise you someone did. Anybody wanna admit to owning a shirt for a man who thought he was a farm animal?

As for what other Wrestlecrap-worthy merch there is out there … Wrestlecrap has a whole section about this, called Somebody Bought This!. And, brother, it is full of weapons-grade shit.

How about a shirt for WCW’s short-lived furry mascot, Wild Cat Willie?

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/sbt/someone-bought-this-not-one-but-two-tatanka-foam-tomahawks/>These culturally dodgy Tatanka foam tomahawks!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/sbt/someone-bought-this-thats-not-glue-on-that-shirt/>This Val Venis shirt, written in a font that must be called Jizz New Roman!

Who doesn’t want to proudly say they went to the http://www.wrestlecrap.com/sbt/someone-bought-this-wcw-nitro-grill-shirt/>WCW Nitro Grill?

A “How To Be A Snob” shirt from the rich snob era of http://www.wrestlecrap.com/sbt/someone-bought-this-hunter-hearst-helmsley-how-to-be-a-snob-shirt/>Hunter Hearst Helmsley!

John Cena Lawn Gnomes. I repeat: http://www.wrestlecrap.com/sbt/someone-bought-this-john-cena-lawn-gnomes/>John. Cena. Lawn. Gnomes.

I could go on and on and on. There’s 34 pages of merchandise that will make you question how these marketing people roam the earth without state-appointed minders to keep them from falling out of windows or reminding them to breathe.

And on that note, Johnny, play me out.

A Question I Want Answered!

Back to the philosophical. And I’m looking for honest, inciteful answers. “Better booking” or “there is no way” are not acceptable answers. We’re trying to be constructive here. Foster a dialogue.

So. Deep breath. Ready.

What would it take for you to give Impact another chance?

See you in seven-ish?