Ask 411 Wrestling: Was Batista Supposed To Turn Heel In 2008?

Welcome guys, gals, and gender non-binary pals, to Ask 411 . . . the last surviving weekly column on 411 Wrestling.

I am your party host, Ryan Byers, and I am here to answer some of your burning inquiries about professional wrestling. If you have one of those queries searing a hole in your brain, feel free to send it along to me at [email protected]. Don’t be shy about shooting those over – the more, the merrier.

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Klep Trep is splitting some logs:

Who is the first person to body slam Abraham Lincoln?

Probably nobody ever did.

I have to qualify this with “probably,” because Honest Abe was wrestling in an era during which detailed accounts of his matches were not maintained. In fact, we don’t even really have a listing of his bouts, let alone what happened in them.

However, the prospect of Lincoln being hit with a body slam is pretty unlikely for a couple of different reasons. The first is that by most accounts Lincoln was dominant as a grappler. It is questionable whether he could have been placed in such a compromising position. The second and more significant is that what we think of as a body slam in 2024 was not going to be a common maneuver when Lincoln was wrestling in the Nineteenth Century. All of his matches were shoots, and, though not illegal, the pro wrestling scoop slam is not a common feat at all in legitimate catch as catch can wrestling, the style Abe would have participated in.

HBK’s Smile is looking back:

Any credible list of the greatest matches of all-time features the Savage vs Steamboat Intercontinental from WrestleMania III, and it’s almost always the oldest match on the list. Obviously, opinions differ, but what would be the consensus Mount Rushmore of the best matches ever prior to WM III?

I don’t think that there is a consensus list, and it has to do with the way that wrestling was consumed in the decades prior to the 1980s – and even the early part of the 80s.

You have to keep in mind that Savage/Steamboat took place in 1987, and prior to that we were still mostly dealing with regional wrestling promotions where matches were not widely distributed outside their home territories for mass consumption. Plus, the biggest and best matches were often not even video taped, because the real money was in getting people out to live events as opposed to airing wrestling on pay per view or television. Thus, some of the true best matches prior to the WWF’s national expansion were probably not seen by anyone other than the people who were at the venues the evenings they happened.

In other words, fans of specific territories might have their own specific consensus lists, but you’re not going to find a broad consensus that covers wrestling nationally or globally – at least not one that was prepared contemporaneously to the matches happening. You’d have to rely on people today going back and watching matches from 30-50 years ago, which is always a dicey proposition because wrestlers weren’t wrestling for people in the future. They were wrestling for their audience as it existed at the time.

The best that you can probably do is look at the people who have reputations as being particularly good in-ring performers across several territories, which would include most of the classic NWA and AWA World Champions, the Rock n Roll Express, the Midnight Express, the Fantastics, Ray Stevens, Pat Patterson, Dynamite Kid, Tiger Mask, and so on.

Bret is hanging it up . . . maybe:

I was just wondering your thoughts on retirement matches. They always seem to come back with in a year. Roddy Piper vs. Adrain Adonis. Hogan vs. Flair at 1994 Halloween Havoc. Ultimate Warrior vs. Randy Savage. Terry Funk in numerous matches. Is it just to get people to watch? Your thoughts?

It depends.

There have certainly been circumstances in which a retirement or “loser leaves town” match has been held where the stipulation has been part of a storyline and it’s been known going in that the retiring wrestler is coming back one way or the other. The 1994 Hogan/Flair match that Bret mentions is one example. WCW just felt that they needed a gimmick to give the match a little more oomph, presumably because Hogan had already beaten Flair like a drum.

However, I believe that there also have been plenty of circumstances in which a wrestler truly intended to put the sport behind them and only came back later because circumstances changed. Roddy Piper’s Wrestlemania III retirement is an example of this. He really was leaving to go try his chances in Hollywood, and all indications are that if he truly did become a star actor, his wrestling career would have been over or at least would have been much more limited than what it wound up being.

Tyler from Winnipeg is putting over new talent:

As far as Brock Lesnar goes, is his tilt vs The Rock at SummerSlam one of your favs?

Though it’s far from bad, it’s definitely not one of my favorite Brock matches. I think that his efforts against Kurt Angle and the Undertaker were significantly better.

However, I do think of that as perhaps the most significant match in making Brock into the star that he is today, and I give the Rock a lot of credit for being willing to go along with what was unquestionably the right finish at the right time, as he definitely would have had the sway at that point to refuse to take the L.

(And I should note that, despite my comments above, I also 100% agree with Steve Austin’s decision to not put over Lesnar when he was asked to, because I believe Austin is correct when he says that the timing was all wrong. Brock should’ve beaten Austin at some point, but he should’ve been one of the last victims of the Next Big Thing, not one of the first.)

Donny from Allentown, PA is Ask 411’s strongest reader:

Who was the worst of the strongman wrestlers in your opinion-Ted Arcidi or Bill Kazmier?

Prior to having to actually think about the answer to this question, these two guys were almost interchangeable in my mind, to the point that I’m sure I’ve confused one for the other in the past.

However, having considered their bodies of work, I would say that I generally find Arcidi less offensive than Kazmaier. Some of that may come down to context, though, as I primarily associate Arcidi with the WWF and Kazmaier with WCW.

In the Fed, Arcidi was just another muscle bound guy squashing jobbers, of which there were many over the years. The matches weren’t great, but they were over quickly and on cards that weren’t great overall. Meanwhile, Kazmaier was put into the mix with opponents like Dick Murdoch, Arn Anderson, and Larry Zbyszko in competitive matches, where he looked far more out of place.

Granted, Arcidi may have looked just as bad if he were put in a similar position, but we can only compare what we were actually given.

Uzoma is sorry, he loves you:

In 2008 after WrestleMania 24, Batista feuded with Shawn Michaels over the latter retiring Ric Flair at the event, angry over him doing so, even going so far as to deem him “selfish” and “egotistical” despite the Nature Boy not wanting HBK to hold back against him just because of the stipulation. Based on all this, it looked like Batista was gonna turn heel but after the feud ended, he remained a face until finally turning heel on Rey Mysterio the following year. Was Batista supposed to turn heel on Michaels in 2008?

He was not.

The Figure Four Weekly newsletter discussed that storyline as it was unfolding. In issue #669, published on April 21, 2008, it was reported that despite Batista receiving boos from the crowd as part of the angle, there was no intention to turn him heel and that the member of the face roster who would be turning soon was actually Chris Jericho (which in fact happened, leading to the best run of Jericho’s career). Meanwile, F4W #671 from May 5 of the same year reviewed the ’08 Backlash pay per view, which included the post-Wrestlemania singles match between Michaels and Batista. In reviewing the match, the newsletter noted that the intention going forward was for HBK to be a babyface on the Raw brand with Big Dave in a face role on the Smackdown side of things.

This makes sense if you think about it, because the Backlash match actually featured Michaels playing a more heelish role, including faking an injury to win. This meant that each guy spent some time being more of a jerk than the other in the feud, Batista more in the building up and Michaels more in the match itself. This prevented either from going full heel.

Night Wolf the Wise finds himself caught in the iron claw:

1. A couple weeks ago I found something that has become my weekly routine to watch. It’s called Stories with Brisco and Bradshaw on Youtube. Brisco and JBL tell stories with various wrestling legends on the show: Stan Hansen, Teddy Long, The Freebirds, Ricky Morton, Finlay, etc. I highly recommend that everyone watch it as it is entertaining. I was watching an episode with James Beard. James Beard is a referee that worked in WCCW, and Japan mostly. In the interview JBl asked James Beard about Vince McMahon wanting to partner with Fritz Von Erich. The story goes Vince only wanted to partner with Fritz Von Erich to get Kerry Von Erich. If Vince got Kerry Von Erich, Vince would be able to go takeover the Texas territory. Is there any truth to that story?

2. Speaking of the James Beard interview, it was stated that the Von Erich boys wanted to take WCCW globally, but their father wouldn’t do it because of not wanting to go into another promoter’s territory. What do you think would have happened if WCCW had gone global?

The story about McMahon attempting to work with Fritz Von Ericho is completely accurate as near as I can tell, as other credible sources have addressed it, including Jim Cornette on his podcast. It also makes a lot of sense if you think about it, because Vince entered into exactly the same sort of deal with Stu Hart up in Calgary, which resulted in the WWF acquiring talent like Bret Hart and the British Bulldogs. I’d be amazed if he didn’t try something similar with World Class and the Von Erich boys.

As far as World Class going global is concerned, to a certain extent how it would have played out is dependent on when it would have occurred. However, I suspect that at the end of the day the WWF was still going to put them out of business, because the WWF still had Hulk Hogan and still had all the advantages that came with being based out of New York, one of the biggest media capitals on the planet.

Oh, Brad:

In your opinion what are the best 3 “submission matches”?

Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA, Starrcade 1985

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk, Clash of the Champions IX

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, Wrestlemania XIII

There are probably no surprises on this list for most of our readership, but, hey, when you’re the best, you’re the best.

Steve can recite all the U.S. presidents in chronological order:

Can you shed some light on what the WWWF was thinking when they gave their championship to Bob Backlund in 1978 and kept the belt on him for nearly six whole years? He seems like such an anomaly in the title history at a time when promotions were extremely careful about whom they put on top. Excluding transitional champs, the other champions before Vincent K.’s takeover were all charismatic body guys or babyfaces intended to appeal to ethnic subcultures in the urban Northeast. But Backlund seemed more like the kind of guy Verne Gagne would want as headliner. What motivated the Fed to give Backlund the ball and let him keep it for so long?

This was covered on Bruce Prichard’s podcast a few years back, and the story told was that Vince McMahon Sr. was specifically looking for somebody who was different than champions like Pedro Morales and Bruno Sammartino because wrestlers out of that mold had been run with in the territory for so long. Apparently, Vince Sr. was specifically looking for an all American boy type in the vein of Jack Brisco, and both Sam Muchnick and Eddie Graham recommended Backlund for the position.

That’s how Backlund got the championship in the first place. How did he keep it for so long?

The answer is because, even though he was incongruous with the company’s other champions, Backlund with the title worked. He was a consistent draw for the promotion and sold out Madison Square Garden multiple times, making him a successful champion. If Backlund as champion didn’t actually do business, there is no way that it would have lasted near as long as it did.

James is holding his opponent in a very awkward position:

On the January 26th, 1998 episode of Raw, during the Vader/Goldust match, Kane interferes and JR excitedly proclaims that Kane performed a Tombstone on Vader who was billed at 458 pounds at the time. Was Vader the heaviest wrestler to ever have been Tombstoned by Kane? And for that matter, has who was the heaviest wrestler that The Undertaker successfully performed a Tombstone on?

This question is a bit difficult to answer because of real versus gimmicked weights.

Kane did, in fact, tombstone Vader. In fact, the Undertaker has done the same thing. Though Vader was billed at 458 pounds at points during his career, that frankly seems a bit exaggerated to yours truly. However, I am also struggling to come up with any larger wrestler that either the Undertaker or Kane would have tombstoned.

The only possibility that comes to mind is Mark Henry, who I know has taken the move from the Undertaker (at Wrestlemania 22) though I could not readily find an example of him taking it from Kane. Throughout his career, Henry was billed in the high 300s or even low 400 pound range. Given the potentially exaggerated nature of Vader’s weight, I wouldn’t be surprised if he and Henry actually clocked in at around the same amount during their peaks, making Henry perhaps the second heaviest guy to take a tombstone from a brother of destruction.

Brendan is one half of a local odd couple:

How did the team of Rick Rude and Manny Fernandez 1) come together and 2) win the world championship in such a stacked tag division? They always seemed like the oddest pairing. Manny was at the bottom of the card for years and so was anyone associated with Paul Jones.

There’s really not that much of an explanation, aside from the fact that they were both heels managed by Paul Jones and were put together for that reason. Behind the scenes, I suspect that there was a desire to let Rude, who was still relatively green, learn a thing or two in the ring from Fernandez, who had been around for a decade at that point.

We’ll return in seven-ish days, and, as always, you can contribute your questions by emailing [email protected]. You can also leave questions in the comments below, but please note that I do not monitor the comments as closely as I do the email account, so emailing is the better way to get things answered.