Five-Star Conversation 10.14.08 When Outsiders attack!

I want to send my sincerest and best wishes to those touched by the Marek fire that, as I type this, has already destroyed close to 4,000 acres of land here in LA. God bless the courageous firefighters struggling against the Santa Ana winds to contain this monster. My apartment smelled of smoke all weekend and I’m not even very close to the flames!

On a happier note, I woke up to a text from my friend Nathan, asking me if I’d care to join him this Thursday to see Tina Turner at Staples…with floor seats…for free! Uh, DUH! This could very well be her last tour, so I’m all over this! Stoked!

Oh, I’d also like to give myself a big ol’ Barry Horowitz for having been the only person on the four-personed Fact Or Fiction last week to successfully predict Sting dethroning Samoa Joe for the TNA World Title. BTW, I am going to renew my commitment to watching TNA so we can discuss it here.

OH! I’ve been meaning to add this in for a few weeks now. I am quite interested in checking out Ring Of Honor…can anyone help me out with respect to which PPVs would be the best with which to begin so I have not only a solid concept of where the company’s been, but where they’re going? I really would appreciate any input you folks could share with me!

But there’s stuff to be discussed, so let’s get this donkey show on the road! Your referee…Bronco Lubich!

THOUGHT OF THE DAY: Am I the only one who wants to stomp the teeth out of that “Congratulations, you have been selected to receive a free Wii” chick’s face…?

HUMOR IS RELATIVE.
I am always one for pushing the envelope within the realm of humor and I’ve managed to chew on my share of shoes as a result of saying the absolute wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time, and especially in today’s society, edgy humor is more en vogue that it ever has been. However, there are just some topics that shall always remain taboo and just basically uncool in a public forum.

A roast was held last weekend to honor The Iron Sheik. For the uninitiated, a celebrity roast is an entertainment tradition whereby the guest of honor is berated, or “roasted” by his/her colleagues onstage in front of an audience, the general demeanor of the humor being vicious, although in the spirit of camaraderie. Celebrity roasts were big in the ‘70s and have made a comeback in recent years on Comedy Central, and not even those in attendance are safe. For instance, following her release from rehab, Brett Butler was the butt of a zinger from Triumph, the comic insult dog, “She’s had more bones buried in her than Forest Lawn.” One should attend such events with one’s thickest skin in tact.

A comedian named Jimmy Graham took his turn at the podium and had this to say,

“After the Sheik and Hacksaw Jim got caught sniffing coke in the parking lot his career fell faster than Owen Hart.”

Scott Hall was in attendance and, as apparently was the consensus of the room, took offense to the joke, rushed the stage, threw the podium out of his way and clutched Graham by the throat, threatening him with violence for his faux pas. Hall had to be pried off the comedian, was pulled out of the room by security and apparently got tazered for his efforts (Now, see, I could have made an Ashley Fliehr joke there, but I didn’t!).

Look, I appreciate the forum in which this all occurred. I’ve seen many a roast on television and, as I described above, the shit will most definitely be flying at such an event, but there’s two things that rub me the wrong way about the alleged joke in question.

Now I, obviously, wasn’t there, but have seen all the YouTube.com footage and read the statement Graham himself posted about the incident and, from what I’ve managed to surmise, is that Graham is a good friend of King Kong Bundy, who has since started his own stand-up career (which is deserving of its own joke in and of itself), this friendship being Graham’s connection to the wrestling business. I would assume, too, that he’s a fan, although the fact that he managed to misspell Owen “Heart” and Razor “Ramone” in his statement causes me to wonder.

We all are cognizant that the wrestling business is much different than any other business in existence and that there, too, exists a unique and tight fraternity among those who comprise it, much like that which one finds in the military, law enforcement or firefighters. For (no pun intended) an outsider to make such a public statement in a room largely populated by members of such a fraternity…well, it’s that ballsy kind of stupid, even considering the tone of the evening. It would be the equivalent of a guest speaker at a political rally busting a crass joke about the deaths of the troops serving in Iraq in front of a crowd of service-people (except there, one might expect a hail of bullets instead of being bum-rushed by a hulking drunk).

The behavior exhibited by Graham simply displays a profound disrespect for the business, in my opinion, before we even touch on the issue that making fun of untimely death, especially surrounding such horrific circumstances is just awful. Even if he has closer ties to the business than I’ve been led to believe he has, and he very well might, it’s an overstepping of boundaries. Imagine the friend of the best man at a wedding loudly making a crack about what “tough shit” it was that the bride’s dead mother “keeled over” and never got to see her daughter get married. Not exactly the same, but you get the idea.

And second, how uncouth (to say the least) to use Owen’s death as a punchline. Just…wow. By all counts, he appeared to have been such an exceptional human being. During the whole Benoit scandal, the WWE company line seemed to have been that “WWE exists to put smiles on people’s faces”. That seemed to have been Owen’s modus operandi for his entire life. I’m not going to badmouth the performers, but Owen, by such performers’ unanimous claim, was just a cut above in terms of outlook, intention and behavior. I’m certainly not suggesting that another performer’s name should have replaced Owen’s, but that joke could still have been edgy and (actually) funny without desecrating The King Of Hart’s memory. Hell, if he and Bundy are such buddies, he could have said, “After the Sheik and Hacksaw Jim got caught sniffing coke in the parking lot his career fell faster than Bundy’s after Wrestlemania 2”.

Ah. But the bad situation got worse with Hall’s behavior. Now, being the lush that I am, I’m saying this in the spirit of the fraternity of drunkards, but believe it or not, Hall apparently had a nip or two, which threw gasoline on the fire and encouraged him to (over-re)act in such a fashion. The videos posted on YouTube.com were embarrassing to view. At first, my personal reaction was, “Okay, go get ‘em, Scotty!”, but then it went on…and on…and on…It would have been one thing to have stood up and objected to the joke, even throw out some profanity and a dose of ill-will. But to pounce the guy on the stage made Hall look worse. What started as the defense of a fallen comrade ended in chaos. I mean, Hall was throwing crotch chops. It was one thing when 35/40 year-old+ Shawn Michaels and Triple H reformed DX and were doing it as part of their act, but here was Hall at 50 pulling the same attitude of his own volition. It’s just deflating to see someone on the right side of moral fortitude demean his cause in such a manner. Besides, Hall should just wait and let Bret get a hold of Graham…

It seems the entire affair was destined for fiasco in some fashion. I’m just surprised The Sheik didn’t end up fucking someone in the ass like B. Brian Blair.

COMMENTPALOOZA!
Nice parallel with the decade old top-tier and the current product. I think you know my feelings on Vader and really TBS parallels his universe now (how they continue to not allow him to be a BEAST just stuns me). I had forgot how fresh and interesting the top-tier was during that time.

Thanks for the reminder, genius. You did play the part of Lanny, right?
Posted By: thegunisgood (Guest)

Thank you, gun! It seemed an obvious comparison, as it was the last time I could recall there being such a vibrant main event scene, much as we have now. It’s a shame injuries and backstage politics hindered that period from being as good as it could have been, although, as I said, as it was, it still remains one of my favorite periods in the long-ass time I’ve been watching the rasslin.

And I certainly share your sentiment in Show’s regard, other than, I have your answer; if Show was booked as dominant as he should be, he’d KILL everyone, which is why he inevitably ends up with Kane and The Undertaker.

Lanny…?

Hey Geoff – I’m with you on the intrigue surrounding Batista challenging Jericho for the title. Let’s not forget that the HBK/Jericho feud was the fallout from the earlier HBK/Batista feud which was the fallout from the Flair retirement angle. If the booking plays into any of those former scenarios at all, then I think we could be expecting something really cool. Hopefully this will not be just another title opportunity for Big Dave that he will just choke on.

If done right, I see the opportunity for some real dynamics in character. The sharp moments of the Batista/HBK feud were that Batista wanted to brand Michaels as a heelish sort just because he retired Flair – even though Michaels technically did nothing wrong. So we have Batista AND Jericho who don’t care for HBK, now where does that leave them now that Batista and Jericho are set to be opponents? See what i mean? It’s kind of a weird “enemy of my enemy is my friend” sorta thing that’s playing in the background.
Posted By: JMAC (Guest)

Oh, no I’d not forgotten about the Batista dynamic in the initial HBK/Y2J story and I think it’s potentially brilliant form should we see the story go full circle. My trepidation now stems from seeing this incredible program fall to mediocrity once the regular writing staff takes over from where Michaels and Jericho left off. And, at least for me, there’s a certain cache of Catch 22 involved, as well, because Batista really needs to take the title now that he’s challenging for it, because, as I’ve said, he’s skirting dangerously close to “Mr. Close But No Cigar” which will really damage his credibility if he can’t make it happen soon (much like Jeff Hardy on SD!); but the big conundrum is that I don’t want to see Batista as the champion, especially at Jericho’s expense. I, too, am interested in this angle, but am not too sure I’m going to like where it ends up.

Way to let your commenters write the column for you…
Posted By: Guest#1915 (Guest)

Clearly you’ve missed the point of the column. I’m sorry if you felt I jipped you last week, but the original content portion of the column was over 2000 words, which seems like a good hunk of reading to me, especially as dense as my writing tends to be. The column refers to Conversation because that’s the intention; I bring up a point or two, offer my opinion and I invite those who wish to comment, thereby continuing the conversation, to do so and I then respond the following week. In the case of last week, we saw a great conversation between two of this column’s favorite fans in thegunisgood and toddo, which we’ll be getting to in a moment.

i think this comment is more to do with last weeks column, but the “problem” with raw if you will is the lack of a mid card.

im sorry, but theres all these big names in the main events, all these jobbers and whove they got mid card? probably only kofi, the priceless stable and cryme time.

i mean, theres just too big a void between talent. anybody see noble, santino burchill or haas raised up close enough to the level of mysterio, kane or punk? no, hence santino got squashed by the manimal baptista recently.

the whole point of a mid carder in my view is that theyre wrestlers who could concievable challenge the top tier talent and not look too out of place even if its in losing efforts. raw just doesnt have enough of those guys hence their own little talent exchange with ecw.
Posted By: DaJ (Guest)

This is a fantastic observation and is pretty much what I plan on discussing next week, juxtaposed with the SmackDown! landscape, as well. Good eye, DaJ!

Do you want our incite or our insight? I know this is a fan-run website, but doesn’t anyone proofread these things?

Posted By: Sly Reference (Guest) on October 07, 2008 at 02:41 PM

Did you get the meaning dude? If so then get off your soap altar and just enjoy the column without being a proofreading fag TA from some lame NAIA school. I bet you never leave home without a red pen you va-jay-jay.
Posted By: Joel McHale (Guest)

First of all, yeah, I cognated that one, didn’t I? My bad, entirely. Second, I think a little commenter self-policing is cool, but the use of the “f”-word isn’t. Not too fond of the name calling, although I have to admit that I laughed. I had a Spanish teacher in high school who was ALL wacky with the red pens…another sotry for another time.

Geoff, we’ll have to wait and see if today’s stars match the ones from ten years ago. There will be a certain amount of fans that will not allow them to, no matter how good their careers are. JBL is an interesting example. Ten years ago, he was an Undertaker stooge, but in 2004, they gave him the mic and he became a great talker. There will be those that will never give him a chance. I guess we’ll just have to let today’s stars play out and see which group is better. On a side note, while I agree that the Invasion wasn’t the best storyline ever, any time that you have Kurt Angle in a way-too-small cowboy hat, playing the guitar, and singing “Jimmy Crack Corn”, than it can’t be all bad. Last, but not least. I once had “moist taquitos”, but the prostitute said that was all I could pay for.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest)

I think JBL is a more particular case. As we’ve been discussing, there have been times when WWE’s main event has been SO slim, drastic measures had to be taken to keep the belt afloat, and the period you reference was just such a time. There are two reasons, in my view, why JBL won’t be fully accepted by a majority of fans (three if you want to count the fact that he could fit snugly into one of Vickie Guerrero’s brassieres):

1) In the very beginning he went from jerking the curtain on Velocity in THE APA to main-eventing SD!, challenging for Eddie Guerrero’s title. Not only was there the fact he was opposing SUCH a beloved champion, he came out of nowhere to do so which sent him to the ring limping on a lame leg of credibility, which I don’t think a lot of us have been willing to afford him, even now. It’s a fact he works his considerable ass off in the ring, as well that he does so in a grip of pain, but he’s largely disrespected because he never developed that base credibility in the beginning of this singles run (especially to those of who recall him way back in the day when he was being seconded to the ring by Dutch Mantell and jobbing to Savio Vega). This, to me, is the fault of McMahonagement;

2) Layfield plays his obnoxious, odious character SO well, I don’t know if fans can really disassociate the man from the character. Now, granted, we know he’s a backstage leader, although part of me wonders how self-appointed is that role because of his size, as we also know he’s a bully…just ask The Blue Meanie about that claim. We also know his Wall Street credibility is pretty much as solid as he makes it out to be. The aspect of his character of which I had to remind myself while doing The SD! R’s, especially once he took over color commentary duties, is that he’s playing a character…at least we HOPE so. I don’t think the real John Layfield is the border patrolling, Right-of-McCain homophobe he portrays. It’s much the same as my fandom relationship with Roddy Piper. Do I think he’s really the annoying asshole he was even when he was playing a face? No, but I DO think he’s a case where his character is simply an amplified version of himself and, as such, I find him to be absolutely vomit-inducing…the ONLY thing that makes me soften my utter and absolute hatred of him is the fact that Ric Flair has been so close with him for so long and holds him in such esteem. I think a similar such situation exists with JBL…he plays his character well to a fault.

This is going to come off as really bitchy, but it strikes me that, even though he did come in at a time when he was needed and completely stepped up his game in so doing, JBL has outlived his purpose in the ring. Quite frankly, as hurt as he is, I don’t see why, other than personal loyalty from employer to employee, which is admirable, he is still performing, especially at the top of an already packed card. His role as commentator proved it’s not time to send the old horse to the glue factory, but the physical product could certainly exist and thrive without him.

Agreed, Angle at that time was a total laugh riot, and I think he managed to pull it off with more panache than did AJ Styles when he was running around in a friggin crown, but that whole period was just fucking surreal. “We don’t need no stinking badges!” We’ll talk InVasion at length at another time.

Finally, Schmoove, I hear ya. The damned economy is hitting everyone. Everyone knows the moist taquitos aren’t worth the coin unless you can afford to add the side of guacamole…

I have an ideal of why they have so many people fighting for the title… Isn’t there an elmination chamber match set for no mercy? So Austin wins the vote for cyber Sunday stuns Baptista for being a whinny little girl causing his heal turn and you have jericho vs micheals vs batista vs Kane vs rey vs jbl batista pins jbl to get the title(which shuts him up) while everyone else keeps themselves looking strong in there own feud and gives batista a chance for a feud that gives his character a little bit more meaning

Plus then when ortons done killing any chance punk has of being taken seriouslly then we can have orton batista
Posted By: Guest#0303 (Guest)

See, this is why I love the “conversation” format, because those of you with more vision than me, like 0303 here, can offer brilliant insight such as this. This makes absolute sense. The reason why there were so many people in the ME scene in ‘96/’97 was because they were writing the ROYAL RUMBLE scene into WrestleMania, and it was a compelling way to involve all the top stars. To do so now with an Elimination Chamber match on the horizion makes perfect sense. Thanks and well done!

Toddo channeled one of my answers in last week’s Fact Or Fiction:

Where the majority of todays main event guys do not match up to the boys of the past is that all important character development factor. If I remember correctly, in ’97 the wrestlers were given alot more freedom with their promos, they were given talking points, and pretty much just told to say what they want as long as they touched on the key elements, right? I think re-introducing that style of promo would go a long way to establish the individuality of todays main eventers.

Here’s what I had to say on the same subject:

Furthermore, and closer to the crux of the question, why are promos now scripted? The performers who made the business great (many of whom are enumerated above) used to own their characters because they, themselves, molded and evolved them, improvising their own promos and, thus, connected with the fans on their own and on their own terms, as opposed to being given a stupid name with a blank page for a gimmick and handed a scripted promo by someone who used to write for Guiding fucking Light. “Austin 3:16 says, ‘I just kicked your ass'” came neither from a script nor a paid staff writer, but from Steve Austin himself when he was freewheeling a promo on the fly. The best and most successful characters are the basic performers themselves with the proverbial volume cranked to 11…why mess with that? Performers should have three things before cutting a promo: 1) a bullet-point list of that which needs to be accomplished in said promo, 2) a solid grasp of their character, and 3) a mic. That’s it.

Toddo, you’re either brilliant or in a lot of trouble if you’re thinking the same way I do! I think he’s pretty brilliant, as evidenced in his further analysis:

Take CM Punk for example, we know he is straight edge, and that his addiction is competition. But we also learned that 3 years ago when he debuted, and since then, what have we learned about him? Oh yeah… he is straight edge…. and addicted to competition. WWE creative seems to think that just giving a guy a brief intro is enough to keep people interested. Punk has not changed in the least since his debut on WWECW.

Look at Batista. He was introduced on Raw a few years back as an animal(I’m ignoring the deacon years). He would tear through the competition… Look what we know about him now… He’s a well dressed animal that just wants to tear through the competition. Again, not much has changed about his character in the past few years.

Now, compare this with Austin’s rise to the top. Look at how much different of a wrestler Austin was at the end of his career than he was when he debuted as the Ring Master. See what I mean? Austin’s character evolved to become The Rattlesnake, he wasn’t introduced to us as a bad ass no shit takin sumbitch, he evolved to it, and the crowd ate it up.

Look at the Rock… same type of story, just a year or two later. He was introduced as a blue chipper, a 3rd generation star on the rise. As Vanilla of a babyface as they come. Then he evolved into a trash talking arrogant peoples champ and the crowd ate it up.

I’m not saying the above it true with all of the current crop of top guys, because obviously Jericho, Michaels, and Orton have all been through some sort of character evolution, and the crowd either loves them, or loves to hate them. Cena is another example of todays Main Eventers that have had some character development.

I completely agree with your take on Punk and Batista. With respect to Austin, the whole Ringmaster thing really confused me, though. Why the HELL would Austin need Ted DiBiase to talk for him?! ESPECIALLY considering the BRILLIANT string of promos Paul Heyman helped to produce in ECW mere months and weeks before Austin jumped to The WWF?

The Rock is another interesting story, for a different reason. It seemed interesting to me that McMahonagement would debut Dwayne Johnson as a hand-shaking, baby-kissing uber-face when the Attitude years were clearly looming on the horizon, and the “Blue Chipper” character was guaran-damn-teed to fail (and, no, I do NOT think Vince masterminded the original character to fail just to be brought back to turn heel). As part of next week’s focus on the main rosters’ hierarchies, I’ll be touching on some new, similar-such “Blue Chippers”, likening and juxtaposing what we’ve seen in the past and what we’re likely to see soon.

It’s interesting that you bring up Cena and Orton, because it seems to me that they have something in common with Austin and The Rock, and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the reason they worked is because the fans chose them. In Orton’s case, there was certainly McMahon-ipulation involved with the whole face turn in EVOLUTION, but the fans bought it and pushed it along until McMahonagement panic-booked and rushed what was previously a fantastic slow-burn, and turned Orton prematurely, defeated HHH for the belt and then became a SAD pseudo-replication of Austin. The fans didn’t buy it and the whole thing deflated. Orton is lucky he’s managed to regain that level of notoriety because many don’t get that opportunity.

We’ve discussed Cena’s popularity (or lack thereof in some areas). I don’t think anyone had been brought up as bland and vanilla as Cena when he was first introduced. It wasn’t until the Halloween party on the eve of The SmackDown! Six era when he dressed up like Vanilla Ice and started laying down some freestyle that he really came into his own. His rhymes were racy and the fans totally dug it. Then, they pulled a reverse-Rock by turning him into a hand-shaking baby-kisser, as we’ve discussed in the past. It hasn’t crippled Cena, but one wonders if he’d have been MORE popular had he not been altered in such a drastic fashion…?

Toddo is Todd Palin.

Ouch, Gun…VERY ouch…! Talk about name-calling! Thegun goes on:

I like this cast of characters, even though they don’t change much. Changes, if any, should be subtle and with reason. A face Orton doesn’t really make sense because he doesn’t respect legendary wrestlers (the gimmick, not the reality). While I am interesting in the booking of him until WMXXV, I will be disappointed if they don’t stay true to his character in the process. They can lay more groundwork to solidify his persona in the process of this angle and help DEFINE new workers in the process who have yet to firmly establish any identity at all.

CM Punk continues to cement his character, so does Batista and Cena and Jericho and HBK. These aren’t variation or evolutions but only validations of the people we expect them to be.

I absolutely agree with the notion that change should come in subtle fashion (although there are certainly exceptions!) and (especially) with reason. When characters start behaving in ways they never would have prior to a certain point, usually as a means of lazy, convenient writing (true in wrestling as well as in TV, film or literature), it’s time to rev up and jump that shark. But do you really see any character advancement on behalf of Batista and (especially) Punk? Cena pretty much is just Cena in my eyes, but, yes, we have seen a tremendous quantity of character advancement with HBK & Y2J as a consequence of their spectacular program.

This is wrestling! A live cartoon! We expect our heroes to be heroes and our villians to be villians. We really only want depth when we have a midcard worker who we feel (and usually the IWC rally behind) should be main eventer.

I think that’s something of a negotiable claim, gun. Yes, we have a live cartoon in professional wrestling…as I said in the first edition of this column, that’s what made professional wrestling appeal to me in the beginning. My issue (especially with TNA) is when stories are over-concocted, to be more complicated and overblown than is really necessary. As a matter of fact, I think it was Toddo who commented recently that the only mistake in the HBK/Y2J program was involving the World Title, because their feud stands alone and adds nothing to the belt, whereas someone else could have benefitted from having the title on the line in their quarrel.

I DO, however, agree 100% about the depth of a burgeoning mid-carder, but, and this ties in with what I was saying above (and for weeks), that it MUST be the fans who selects a new superstar from the crop of noobs being offered, unless, as in Orton’s case, Vince’s hand-picked star on the rise is treated with care and patience. Vince started making a fantastic omelet in Orton’s regard, but freaked out and ended up with plain ol’ scrambled eggs.

Back to Toddo:

I am talking about taking CM Punk’s straight edge character, and adding another dimension to it. Off the top of my head, maybe explain what happened to cause him to choose the straight edge lifestyle.

Hmm. I really like that, because right now, I’m having a lot of trouble caring about Punk (one of myriad reasons I’m interested in familiarizing myself with ROH; I have a feeling Punk had a LOT more going for himself back then).

What more layers does Punk need to make you respect, like, or hate him even more? Punk is just fighter, like all other fighters before him (Mysterio, Benoit for etc…) who only need to say they love the fight to show their cred. The only thing we wait for now is the heel turn because the fighting isn’t working from the “king of the mountain” sense. Eventually the temptation to take short cut might finally get to him.

Yes, CM Punk = Tito Santana

I guess he isn’t turning anytime soon.
Posted By: thegunisgood (Guest)

Wow, thegun is dishing out more body blows than Floyd Mayweather this week. CM Punk = Tito Santana? I think that one was a little low! (This is an old joke between gun & me…he loves him, I can’t STAND him.)

I really dig the frustration level starting to get to Punk, encouraging him to start taking some short-cuts. It would be an interesting manner in which to gauge how the fans would accept an edgier Punk…he continues to cut corners and the benefits become increasingly favorable, he starts winning consistently, but only against heels. Then maybe he finds himself challenging a beloved face for the World Title. Can he be trusted to fight fair? He proves no, and pulls off a MAJOR cheat to defeat the face and take the belt. Are his fans pleased, or are they outraged? Pulling this against an HBK could potentially go a LONG way in testing Punk’s power as a face…except…is a guy with the discipline to remain true to his lifestyle going to cheat to win? Isn’t that inconsistent? See, it’s these kinds of questions with which McMahonagement should concern themselves…and I don’t think they do, which is why the product tends to be shaky in some ways.

Thanks for the awesome conversation this week, my friends! I hope it was as good for all of you as it was for me! See you next week for another round of Five-Star Conversation!