wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 08.10.11: Tapping Out, Hating Ole, Vacating Titles, More!
This column is brought to you by the AWF, the Australasian Wrestling Federation, and their I-PPV, AussieMania! Go watch it now!
Hello, and welcome to a very ordered and correct edition of Ask 411 Wrestling! I’m Mathew Sforcina, and I’m not exactly setting a leisurely pace this week thanks to having to fill out a census, having to fill in some unrelated paperwork, find time to be awesome and everything, and other stuff that is too top secret/awesome/boring/embarrassing/other to discuss. So let’s just get down to brass tacks, and get this sucker in the can!
Just like this week’s Tom Tom Club and, of course, all of 411mania’s podcasts which are also complete and awesome and everything.
And yep, banner is still the best on the site (and yes, it’s WWF guys in a WCW title. That’s to show that the column is universal, it’s about all wrestling. And NOT because I had the gif months before and then just asked the maker to stick it in a title belt.)
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Backtalking
I don’t really have anything to say here, some great discussion that I can’t really add to, given that Chandler is explained already. Although WM being placed around NCAA is interesting, but I’m not about to work out if it’s true or not.
And people, you ask a question in the comments, it don’t get answered.
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
Last week, I didn’t have a question, instead I linked you to this Sporcle quiz.
So yeah.
Who am I? One of my theme songs is more associated with someone else, while a later theme got some airplay on Radio, until the company put a stop to that. I’ve won tag titles with a brother-in-law and a normal brother. I was in a ‘New Somethings’ team with a future WWE Champion at one point, while I only ever had one World title reign, and most people don’t even know about it. I was involved with a heel turn on a guy that went very well, although later he turned heel on me and that went horribly. I teamed with a rather famous wrestler in his debut match (that I didn’t survive but he did), and could keep up with Ric Flair, according to Ric. Who am I?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?
Well then, let’s begin with the questions I couldn’t do last week thanks to the internet being eaten by a dingo. David is first.
Hi Mathew,
Thanks for answering my question last week. Sorry, I was a bit vague.
As I was using Doplh Ziggler as an example, I meant to ask the
quickest time between end of their 1st secondary title to their 1st
World Title.
The best-fitting answer would be Goldberg, who won his first World
Title while in his first reign as US Champ. Warrior won the World
Title while in his second reign as IC Champ.
While looking, I noticed that the WCW World Title was vacated 11 times
in its 10 year history. One title vacation a year is pretty often
over a large timeframe.
Is there any other wrestling World Title with such a prominent vacation rate?
Thanks
Well, let’s go down the list of Wikipedia, shall we?
AAA World Heavyweight Championship: 4 Years, 1 Vacation.
AWA World Heavyweight Championship: 30 Years, 1 Vacation.
CMLL World Heavyweight Championship: 20 Years, 2 Vacations.
CWA World Heavyweight Championship (Memphis): 2 Years, 1 Vacation.
CWA World Heavyweight Championship: 27 Years, 2 Vacations.
CZW World Heavyweight Championship: 12 Years, 0 Vacations.
ECW World Heavyweight Championship: 16 Years, 2 Vacations.
FIP World Heavyweight Championship: 7 Years, 2 Vacations.
ICW World Heavyweight Championship: 6 Years, 0 Vacations.
IWA Undisputed World Heavyweight Championship: 11 Years, 7 Vacations.
IWA World Heavyweight Championship (Australia): 7 Years, 0 Vacations.
IWA World Heavyweight Championship (International Pro Wrestling): 13 Years, 3 Vacations.
MWA World Heavyweight Championship: 8 Years, 0 Vacations.
NWA World Heavyweight Championship: 63 Years, 7 Vacations.
PWG World Championship: 8 Years, 3 Vacations.
ROH World Championship: 9 Years, 0 Vacations.
TNA World Heavyweight Championship: 4 Years, 2 Vacations.
USWA Unified World Heavyweight Championship: 9 Years, 6 Vacations.
UWA World Heavyweight Championship: 34 Years, 1 Vacation.
WCW International World Heavyweight Championship: 1 Year, 1 Vacation.
WCWA World Heavyweight Championship: 24 Years, 7 Vacations.
World Heavyweight Championship (National Wrestling Association): 20 Years, 4 Vacations.
World Heavyweight Championship (Omaha): 6 Years, 1 Vacation.
World Heavyweight Championship (Pacific Northwest): 6 Years, 0 Vacations.
World Heavyweight Championship (WWE): 9 Years, 5 Vacations.
WSL World Heavyweight Championship: 15 Years, 1 Vacation.
WWA World Heavyweight Championship (Indianapolis): 27 Years, 5 Vacations.
WWA World Heavyweight Championship (Los Angeles): 11 Years, 0 Vacations.
WWA World Heavyweight Championship (Mexico): 25 Years, 2 Vacations.
WWA World Heavyweight Championship: 2 Years, 2 Vacations.
WWC Universal Heavyweight Championship: 29 Years, 33/34 Vacations.
WWE Championship: 48 Years, 7/8+ Vacations (Depending on how you count it)
WWP World Heavyweight Championship: 6 Years, 2 Vacations.
XPW World Heavyweight Championship: 4 Years, 3 Vacations.
Zero1 World Heavyweight Championship: 4 Years, 0 Vacations.
So, yes, there is one ‘world’ title that can rival 11 vacations in 10 years, and that’s the WWC Universal Heavyweight Championship in Puerto Rico. It’s been around a little under 3 times the length of the WCW Title, and it’s been vacated at a slightly higher rate than the WCW title. A couple of titles manage one per year, but that’s the only other company that has managed more than one a year.
Which is surprising, I assumed Memphis would win here…
Adam is a good guy. He’s specific!
Best wrestling column around!
My question – we’ve seen a few wrestlers get monster pushes, straight to the world title. But how many WWE or WCW wrestlers held a world title, without having ever won a secondary or tag title before OR after their world title reign(s)? Surely there are plenty of guys who never won another title of any sort after holding the big one.
We won’t count the WWECW title (if you do, then you can add Mr. McMahon and Jack Swagger to the lists), just the WWE, World Heavyweight, and WCW titles. Holding a title in another company doesn’t count. So, here’s the list!
WWE Champion
Billy Graham
Brock Lesnar
Buddy Rogers
Ivan Koloff
Sgt. Slaughter
Stan Stasiak
Sycho Sid
World Heavyweight Champion
Goldberg
The Great Khali
WCW World Champion.
David Arquette
Hulk Hogan
Randy Savage
Vince Russo
And if you want to include the InVasion WCW…
Kurt Angle
The Rock
So there you go.
Also, which wrestlers had the longest tenures in a major company after losing a world title?
Thanks!
Hmm. Well, it depends on what you mean by ‘tenure’. Do they have to be wrestling, or can it just be employed? I mean, my pick would be Sgt Slaughter, as he’s remained with the WWF/E in some capacity since losing the title in 1991, which is 20 years. It’s mostly been as an ‘ambassador’ and such, but he’s technically been on the payroll.
If you insist on remaining as a wrestler, and you don’t reset upon winning a world title, then it’s Taker, he won the title in 1991 as well, and he’s still technically a wrestler. He’s just on extended, long, long, LONG service leave.
If it actually resets upon winning a world title… Then you’re down to guys like Mr. McMahon, he’s been there 12 years since his last world title…
But I’m sticking with Slaughter.
Charles is in charge!
…
Even I don’t know what the hell that means.
Dear Mathew,
Years ago Nikita Koloff came back to WCW in a retired
wrestler/announcer role. He eventually returned to the ring after
turning heel by hitting Lex Luger in the head with the”new” US Title
belt. During his heel run he became involved in a feud with Sting,
which led to Nikita terrorizing a young Stinger named Scott, or
something like that. Who was Scott? Who was Scott’s mom who jumped the
rail to protect her son?
The kid’s name was Ben, and he won a Sting lookalike contest at Clash Of The Champions XV, “Knoxville Knockout”. The kid was, in fact, Kevin Sullivan’s son. And that was his legit mother who when jumped the rail and protected her son.
Now this, logically, would lead one to assume that it was Nancy Sullivan, a.k.a Nancy Benoit, a.k.a Woman, but clearly it is not her. So Sullivan had a kid prior to Nancy, obviously.
Did Bruno Samartino ever wrestle Harley Race?
Thanks and have a good day,
According to Harley, they worked 3 times, and they never had a winner out of the respect the two had for each other. This isn’t quite accurate. The only match that is floating about online that they had one on one was June 15th, 1973, an NWA Title Match that went to 60:00 1 fall each in St Louis. But then on 8th October, 1981, I can prove Race a liar, as they had a tag match in Japan, with Bruno teaming with Giant Baba to defeat Race and Buck Robley.
So, I can’t disprove the idea that they wrestled 3 times. All I can say is that there was a result in one match with both of them in it.
Chris asks about a guy no-one likes.
Hi Matthew. Love the column. Quick question. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say anything nice about Ole Anderson. Even Flair, Arn, and JJ Dillon always seem to talk about him in a negative light. Why is that? Is there a specific reason, like something he did, or was it just due to his attitude? Thank you.
It’s a combination of things. Back when Ole took over booking of WCW in 1990, all his buddies would have said nothing but good things about him since he was giving them jobs. But yes, today most people don’t have kind things to say. And while I cannot speak for everyone all in one go, themes emerge, such as…
His general attitude: Ole was, and possibly still is, not the nicest guy to be around. I’m sure he has his good days and his bad days, but he seems very set in his ways, and is very outspoken and what have you. He can, very easily, rub people the wrong way. Now, that’s understandable, but then you take that with…
His booking: Ideally, you want a booker who gets on with everyone and is a good booker. If he gets on with everyone but sucks as a booker, the boys will probably pitch in and help out (or rob him blind, depending). If a booker pisses people off but he’s a great booker, people put up with him. But Ole, despite hiring all his old buddies, was not regarded as a good booker during his WCW period. He blames Corporate America, but really, you can’t pin The Black Scorpion on Corporate America.
His personal actions: And that plays into a big part of it, in that while Ole may be hard to be around, he’s had specific and major problems with several people. Flair, Bischoff, Heyman, Tully, he has heat with several key people in the business. But the biggest cause?
Vince McMahon: Ole and Vince have had heat since Black Saturday (when he famously called Linda McMahon a bitch), and he’s done nothing to change that over the proceeding years. He’s publicly ragged on Vince every chance he has had. And thus, he’s on the WWE’s shit list. And when you’re on the outs with the WWE, it doesn’t take much prompting for people to speak ill of you, if they have even a small grievance against you, if Vince don’t like you, you bang on about them.
So yeah, his inabilities as a booker, coupled with bad personal relationship skills and specific problems with some people, including the biggest name in the industry, and that doesn’t leave too many people to keep you on their Christmas card lists.
greenmystik00 continues the heat questions.
Hey Sforcina,
Long time reader first time asker. I’ve been hyped as hell to see The Rock back on TV, but it made me wonder. The Rock said that Cena was talking trash about him when Rock left. Is this a scripted fued or did Cena actually make comments about Rock on his twitter or through some other media? I couldn’t find any comments Cena made within the last couple months before Rock came on. How long ago was this so called insult and if he did was it kayfabe?
Cena did indeed make comments about Rock a fair while before Rock came back to start the angle, it’s just a matter of finding them now that everyone is talking about Rock/Cena and the two are trading barbs every other week.
Ah, here we are. The comments were from 2008, and in an interview Cena gave to UK paper The Sun.
“[Dwayne Johnson] is a genuinely nice guy and a fantastic human being.
“What I kind of get peeved about, and this is my Achilles heel, is that I’ve wanted to do this my whole life.
“Rock falls into that category. At one point he loved wrestling and wanted to do this all his life.
“So explain to me why he can’t come back for our 15th anniversary show or why he can’t make an appearance at WrestleMania. I wish he’d just show up, say hi and leave. Do the eyebrow once and get out of town.
“Simply put it’s because he wants to be an actor and there’s nothing wrong with that, because he’s truly found another passion. He’s good at acting. His films make money.”
“Associating with sports entertainment doesn’t do much for his acting career. I get it.
“Just don’t **** me around and tell me that you love this.
“That’s the only thing that gets me really ****ed off.
“Our fan base have so much admiration for him, he’s got to respect that. He doesn’t give anything back.”
And so on. I remember him making a few similar comments at that time, including one where he said he’d never leave the WWE, even if he won an Oscar he’d stick around, which led to many a snarky comment about how that was just so likely. Followed by whatever it is other people use instead of Chandlers.
But back then, a few people did float the idea that Cena was laying in groundwork for a later match. Those people got laughed at. But not now, obviously. Now those people are too busy making Broski of the Week videos.
Well, there is now a sequel, Project Weezer II.
Pretty cool. Not quite on par with 1, yes, but the few fan made vids are (Dragon, No Bravery, 100 Things, Botchamanias 27, 69, 94, 111.)
JLAJRC has two questions.
Why didn’t Sunny leave with Chris Candido after he left the WWF and went to WCW and even his tragic short-lived stint in TNA? You just know WCW would have loved to have had Sunny on their roster even with her well known drug issues. As far as I know they were still a couple until his death. Or did they break up but kept it quiet, as I don’t remember seeing anything about that happening.
…
Dude, Sunny WAS in WCW.
As for TNA, they probably would have eventually brought her in, but at the time, they had a spot for Chris and it didn’t need Tammy. Plus it’s possible that Tammy might well have been, at the time… Unsuitable for working.
Now, of course, she’d refuse to work for them over the issues with Chris’ death.
Why did Billy Gunn win the 1999 King of the Ring if the WWF wasn’t gonna give him a main event run (Heck, King Mabel at least got to main event Summerslam). In fact, almost immediately after, they seemed to go out of their way to bury/humiliate him via wrestler promos and later on the Billy/Chuck stuff. What happened here? Did he tick someone off?
They depushed him because he sucked.
1/100000000000th of a Chandler
Well no, while he did lose the night after the show (Bradshaw beat him to win back the tag title Billy Gunn took), he was pushed up until about the time Russo left. Yes, he never got a world title shot, but he got a match with The Rock, he got a ‘push’, it was just that while Russo was pushing him, everyone else knew he sucked and wasn’t over, so no-one was willing to job to him cleanly, so all his wins were weak and he lost the big matches, so he didn’t get over.
But he didn’t tick people off, it’s just that he… Sucked. Or at least, was not over to a degree that they felt justified in pushing him in a serious role. He was a decent tag wrestler, so they kept him there after they tried, and failed, to push him up the card. Nothing wrong with that, you need good tag team wrestlers.
Before Punk did it, it was done before. Steve asks about it.
I was watching SuperBrawl VI last night on WWE Classics On Demand. The Brian Pillman vs Kevin Sullivan “Respect Match.” Was that supposed to happen when Pillman grabbed the microphone and said, “I respect you, Booker man.” This followed with Arn Anderson coming out and having a strap match with Sullivan with the same terms as the Pillman match was supposed to be. Also, Flair comes down and stops the match. Do you know the story behind this? It seems as if Pillman broke kayfabe, and the bookers in back were scrambling to make things right. Thanks for all your time you put in on this every week.
Yes, that’s what it looked like. Because it was supposed to.
That was one of the first ‘worked shoots’, where Pillman was working everyone, from the fans to the boys. Sullivan, Arn, everyone directly involved in the match knew what was happening. The idea, at least in Bischoff’s mind, was to put Pillman over as a total loose cannon, like he seriously would do anything. So, you’d have to tune into WCW Nitro, you had no idea what Pillman might do, he might go crazy!
That was what Bischoff thought was happening. But then Pillman went to him and said “You should like, fire me. You fire me *wink* and it’ll be super awesome cool, people will think I’m fired and turning up by myself!” and Eric went along but then the company actually did release him and he set a land speed record in getting a deal with the WWF, with a brief lay over in ECW.
But yeah, total work, designed to look like a shoot.
Hahahaok wants to rail against the system, man.
hi i went to a royal rumble back in like 2000 during the attitude era and i got a wwf attitude era logo t shirt. If i wore that to a WWE event now in 2011 would i be thrown out of the building or would i be allowed to wear it? just wondering 🙂
If security is doing their job, you won’t be allowed in the building unless you remove the shirt. Buried in the fine print for your ticket, it’ll say that you can’t bring any sign that is offensive, or a weapon, or bring anything with the WWF Scratch logo. You should be asked not to wear it before you get in. If you do, and you’re on screen, they’ll ask you to remove it and/or move you off camera.
But yes, they will throw you out if they have to. They have before.
Dave keeps it simple.
I was wondering when was the last time the WWE or World Heavyweight Title hadn’t been defended on a PPV? Excluding Bragging Rights or Survivor Series matches. I mean w/the champion in a tag match with someone. Thanks.
*begins to trawl backwards through Wiki*
Technically Unforgiven 2008, the World Heavyweight Title wasn’t ‘defended’, it was vacant at the time after CM Punk got beaten up, but let’s find a show with no title match at all, shall we?
…
No Way Out 2007. For both titles. Batista, World Heavyweight Champion, teamed with the man he would face at Wrestlemania 23, The Undertaker, to take on the World Tag Team Champions, WWE Champion John Cena and HIS Wrestlemania opponent, Shawn Michaels.
My Damn Opinion
Joe asks a simple, yet complicated question.
Does drawing $ exist thesedays? If wrestlemania 30 tix went on sale
today it would likelysell out n we don’t know who is main eventing. I
watch these legend roundtables n they talk about drawing $ n I don’t
think it’s applicable anymore.
Yes, but Wrestlemania’s a special case. If WWE put tickets on sale for a MSG house show in 2014 now, they’d get a few sales but not like WM would sell. However, the basic idea is an interesting one.
The idea that any one man can draw money by himself is something that the WWE and wrestling in general claims to not care about, but then they often act as if they do. It’s used as the excuse as for why Cena is ‘unbeatable’, since he’s selling merch, they gotta keep on riding it. But when a PPV does badly with Cena V Someone, they seem to blame the other guy.
Now, I think you have two different markets here, in that and company that can sell itself on brand name (WWE, TNA, ROH and maybe CHIKARA) is in a different boat than any other company. The indies do have to work on people who can draw, they have to book either old school names for nostalgia or current hot Indy names for the IWC type fanbase, they book people who draw, so on that level, the concept is not dead.
But when a company can sell itself as a brand and not have to worry so much about who, exactly, turns up? Then it’s very hard to justify the idea that any one person is drawing money since, as you say, people buy the tickets for the company, not the person on the show.
So in the major leagues, it does seem like the concept is dead. At least from this angle. Readers?
Now to annoy R-Truth, it’s Jimmy!
Hey Mat,
Jimmy here, thanks for answer my double loaded questions this week. I
really didn’t feel like bothering you on both ask 411games and ask
411wrestling, so I figured I’d do a two for one. So to repay ya, if
you ever want an Over or Under dedicated to you, just let me know. By
the way, have you ever held a title? If you have, how fucking good did
it feel when you won it? Later
*checks Over/Under list so far*
The Bard’s Tale, the 2004 edition. Or Civilisation 2. Or Commander Keen. Do one of them.
And yes, I’ve held two titles. I’ve been a tag champion (and might well be one again on the 27th of August at AWF PsychoticSlam at Blacktown RSL, come along!) and I’ve held the company’s main title. The tag titles came first, and it was interesting. Like Taz, holding one title was always a goal of mine, not so much for the glory, but it’s more the idea that the company is saying ‘You, Sir, are Good Enough.’ And I really got that with the Main Title, that was a damm good feeling. Not so much for the idea of me being The Champ as an ego trip, but more it was felt that I was good enough to be the champ. So it did feel good, although I felt better when I was able to put over my opponents by cheating and conniving my way to victory.
But before anyone accuses me of being all selfless and crap, yes, there was a small, tiny amount of Gollum like greed buried in there somewhere. Hence my constant, annoying demands for my ‘fair rematch’.
(Anonymous) would like a book review.
Hey Mathew,
I really enjoy your column. I had a quick question.. I was thinking about picking up the book “Swimming with Piranhas: Surviving the politics of Pro Wrestling” by former NWA president Howard Brody. I was wondering if you were familiar with it and could give a yay or nay on going ahead and buying it.
Thanks
Hmm. Can’t tell if this is a sneaky way to get free advertising or not…
Anyway, I’ve never heard of the book before, but some quick Google Fu indicates that Cornette’s a fan of the book. Whether or not that is a yay or nay is up to you. All I can say is that I had not heard of the book, but after looking around for info for a few minutes, I want to read it. So I guess that’s an ‘unseen yay’ on buying it. Let me know how it goes.
And Keith finishes us off with some submissions.
Hi Matt,
Just read this week’s article and seeing as you answered your thoughts on pinfalls in a match, what do you think about the “art of tapping out”?
I would like to know your opinion on the style of giving up in a match (i.e. quick tap, waiting a few secs, etc) and also, how long is too long to stay in a submission hold before giving up?
Thanks,
As I said last week, tapping out is a lot more complicated in terms of what you have to consider. See, there’s only so many ways you can get pinned, only so much you have to keep in mind. But tapping out, you have to consider the match, the storyline, the wrestlers, the camera, the crowd…
A good submission depends on what you want. Are you putting over the fact that the heel is a pussy? Then you have him tap out almost instantly with 2 hands. Are you putting over the fact that the two men are equals, but on this night, the heel was that little bit better? Then the face holds on for over a minute, and then taps slowly. Is it the move that’s deadly? Then it’s a quick, sudden tapping.
But the thing is, with tapping, while it’s more complicated, it’s also easier to adjust to the fans. If the fans aren’t into a pinfall, you kinda have to just go with it. But you can sell a submission longer, make the fans think you’ll escape, you can manipulate the fans a lot more with a tap out, since you can adjust on the fly easier. You have more to think about, but more options.
But I tend to think a standard, dramatic tap out goes in stages, basically what the guy in the move is thinking/doing.
You start with “Nonononono” and the fighting off the move.
Then comes “OWWWWW” as the move is locked in and you are in pain.
Then comes “Lemmeoutlemmeout” as you try to counter.
Then comes “Dammitdammitdammit” as you consider taping out, hand raised.
Then comes “Fightfightfight!” as you begin to crawl/roll/reach for the ropes, or try and recounter.
Then comes “No….” as you raise up the hand again.
And then, finally, a single tear as you tap out.
As a rule. But what do you guys think? Let me know, and we’ll compare notes and holds next week.
This column was brought to you by the AWF, the Australasian Wrestling Federation, and their I-PPV, AussieMania! Go watch it again!
